"cav vs infantry balance"

[madracc00n]

So u take by far worst infantry in custom battles and put it againt best melee cav with equal numbers on plain desert map.Wasnt commanding troops rly,except formation+charge.Thats just hillarious cav only get a bunch of kills on initial charge after that they got stomped.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2070267213

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2070288201 i Guess horse archers not op anymore.Shield wall is new op units i guess.

That is on 1.2 beta btw.

Btw this topic is mostly for fun atm.U dont need to get angry i am not blaming anyone just saying.

[madracc00n]

Publicado originalmente por belthize:

Publicado originalmente por madrac00n:

Btw this topic is mostly for fun atm.U dont need to get angry i am not blaming anyone just saying.

Along those lines ....

Custom battle where two unit types are thrown against each other to compare their utility are to actual game play with a human controlling their movement is like comparing historic versions of NFL teams with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8y0_XVnCII

rather than something like Madden NFL 19.

Yeah but u always play against AI and on top of that it was waay different before shield wall changes just saying.

[madracc00n]

Publicado originalmente por dande313:

In my experience (using yesterday's beta patch), the AI is pretty good about turning around after the initial charge, riding out, and charging again. The thing is, if spears don't outright kill the horse, they'll stop it dead in its tracks. Calvary suck in close quarters, as their mobility is drastically hindered. Calvary are great because of their speed, and the range of their lances. Once they've been stopped, they have no speed, and their lance range becomes a major disadvantage.

One unit type armies rarely work well. You've also got the "Best Calvary" going against their worst counter. The strength of calvary largely comes from flanking. I usually don't tell them to charge until after: 1. The archers have already begun to pepper the melee with arrows. 2. Both our melees have charged. Once they're distracted, Calvary is great at flanking them from behind.

Revert it to 1.1 patch and see how this "counter" get destoryed while having huge number advantage

[Morkonan]

Publicado originalmente por madrac00n:

...
In game it is even easier and better for the player since AI just throws their cav away and 75% of their army is recruits.

The AI does favor charging their calv early and they are far, far, too confident with their "All Recruit Spam" armies.

Some recruits and low Tier units seem a bit nastier than others. Wearing Tier 6 Armor, I brushed up against the Spear of a low-tier Aserai Spear-dude while fighting in a siege and lost half my hitpoints immediately... He wasn't even trying to poke me, just trying to get away from the assaulting units. I have no idea WTF that was about... Lag? Incidental Crit?

There are certain scenes with difficult terrain where the AI doesn't seem to understand what's sensible. It just goes to "high ground." And, if that "High Ground" is the top of a rock that's perched really, really, really, high on top of other rocks? The AI will send their entire army to clamber up there, horses and all.

[madracc00n]

Publicado originalmente por Morkonan:

Publicado originalmente por madrac00n:

...
In game it is even easier and better for the player since AI just throws their cav away and 75% of their army is recruits.

The AI does favor charging their calv early and they are far, far, too confident with their "All Recruit Spam" armies.

Some recruits and low Tier units seem a bit nastier than others. Wearing Tier 6 Armor, I brushed up against the Spear of a low-tier Aserai Spear-dude while fighting in a siege and lost half my hitpoints immediately... He wasn't even trying to poke me, just trying to get away from the assaulting units. I have no idea WTF that was about... Lag? Incidental Crit?

There are certain scenes with difficult terrain where the AI doesn't seem to understand what's sensible. It just goes to "high ground." And, if that "High Ground" is the top of a rock that's perched really, really, really, high on top of other rocks? The AI will send their entire army to clamber up there, horses and all.

Thats why i was running desert flat terrain which is huge for cav.

[dulany67]

Publicado originalmente por madrac00n:

Again tier 5 cav should stomp tier 3 infantry pretty easilly since they are just way better tropps skill and equipment wise.

I don't necessarily agree. But this is why 1vs1 doesn't really matter. Even if a massed cavalry formation makes an unopposed charge into your infantry formation, they should bog down and get chewed up by your archers.

Publicado originalmente por madrac00n:

Also do u see AI doing what u said?-I see them charging and dying with their cav in the front.

That's an argument about AI, but I do see them attempting to flank anyway.

[Andersen]

Cav kills archers and inf without spear, spear kills cav, archers and normal inf kill inf with spear

[madracc00n]

Publicado originalmente por dulany67:

Publicado originalmente por madrac00n:

Again tier 5 cav should stomp tier 3 infantry pretty easilly since they are just way better tropps skill and equipment wise.

I don't necessarily agree. But this is why 1vs1 doesn't really matter. Even if a massed cavalry formation makes an unopposed charge into your infantry formation, they should bog down and get chewed up by your archers.

Publicado originalmente por madrac00n:

Also do u see AI doing what u said?-I see them charging and dying with their cav in the front.

That's an argument about AI, but I do see them attempting to flank anyway.

U can agree or not,but if cav looses to peasants with spears,this makes cav useless on Ai(no matter how good AI is),which leads to boring gameplay )).Since i havent seen a game where AI is competent with cav in big battles ever.

[madracc00n]

Publicado originalmente por Andersen:

Cav kills archers and inf without spear, spear kills cav, archers and normal inf kill inf with spear

Infantry shield wall kills any unit right now.Esp if u use good infantry.Again player can counter that if he is good.But yeah everything kills recruits since they are recruits.
Battanian fians can win against lower class infantry since they have 2 handers(about only unit).

[Imperialus]

Looks like someone learned the same lesson as Emperor Leopold II learned when he decided to beat up a bunch of swiss peasants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oZ1o0gg5aA&

[madracc00n]

Publicado originalmente por TLFT Song of Roland:

Looks like someone learned the same lesson as Emperor Leopold II learned when he decided to beat up a bunch of swiss peasants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oZ1o0gg5aA&

I know that swiss pike squares were doing well against heavy cav in late middle ages.What doest it do with early middle ages peasants with 1,5m spears?

[Imperialus]

Publicado originalmente por madrac00n:

Publicado originalmente por TLFT Song of Roland:

Looks like someone learned the same lesson as Emperor Leopold II learned when he decided to beat up a bunch of swiss peasants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oZ1o0gg5aA&

I know that swiss pike squares were doing well against heavy cav in late middle ages.What doest it do with early middle ages peasants with 1,5m spears?

That was just the first one that popped into my head. Feel free to substitute
Battle of Cerami
Battle of Stirling Bridge
Battle of Legnano
Battle of Falkirk
Battle of Bannockburn
Battle of the Golden Spurs

Bannockburn is the latest at 1314, but they generally all revolved around peasants with pokey things killing a whole mess of heavily armed cavalry. There are a heck of a lot more, but I got sick of typing.

I mean the Battle of the Golden Spurs is named that precisely because a bunch of Dutch peasants massacred the everloving hell out of like 1500 knights and stole their spurs.

[madracc00n]

Publicado originalmente por Samael:

Don't you love how T3-4 veteran troops are now suddenly "peasants"? Waste of time to argue with someone so clueless that they will just make up and say anything rather than admit they are clearly wrong.

Oh wow u still angry.Sorry to dissapoint u but this veteran troop will lose to sturgian archers in melee if u dont use op shield wall formation.But yeah thats not peasant lvl.True.And yeah archers will not shoot a single arrow(there was a topic on the forum about this).Btw not gonna answer to ur "angry posts" anymore gl hf.

[madracc00n]

Publicado originalmente por TLFT Song of Roland:

Publicado originalmente por madrac00n:

I know that swiss pike squares were doing well against heavy cav in late middle ages.What doest it do with early middle ages peasants with 1,5m spears?

That was just the first one that popped into my head. Feel free to substitute
Battle of Cerami
Battle of Stirling Bridge
Battle of Legnano
Battle of Falkirk
Battle of Bannockburn
Battle of the Golden Spurs

Bannockburn is the latest at 1314, but they generally all revolved around peasants with pokey things killing a whole mess of heavily armed cavalry. There are a heck of a lot more, but I got sick of typing.

Cav was pretty strong untill late middle ages,untill gunpowder line infantry and cannons got too strong.And most of this battles are exception(or good terrain for infantry) or examples of bad tactics from cav.Also this is opinion based.But game is about 10-11 century not 14+.Also balance was very very differenet in 1.1 patch.On top of that show me a battle where melee infantry wins against same number of horse archers please?)))Also i was testing it on desert flat terrain which gives cav huge advantage it is not village defence or siege.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2070288201

[njkkfish]

it all depends on how you use cavalry after first charge call them back and charge against broken lines.

[madracc00n]

Publicado originalmente por njkkfish:

it all depends on how you use cavalry after first charge call them back and charge agains against broken lines.

Ai is using cav not me.I just charge in my weak infantry line.