"Learning limit"

[Wisqa]

The learning limit mechanic is just anti-fun. I can't think of a single reason why it should be in the game. People seem to already be rather annoyed with the slow exp gain, and it seems almost impossible to reach certain perks at the end of skill-trees.

Remove learning limit and increase the exp multiplier gain from spending points into skills.

[Grubbs008]

Yeah it's pretty stupid honestly. And having no feat points or attribute points into a specific branch or skill results in a x0.00 exp multiplier which is null in terms of progression.

[Muscarine]

You need 10 attributes and 5 focus points to be able to max out a line at 275, you will reach the softcap at 240 and the remaining 35 points will be extremely slow to learn.

The actual hardcap has your line's current level turn red.

[OldGamer]

Originally posted by Wisqa:

The learning limit mechanic is just anti-fun. I can't think of a single reason why it should be in the game. People seem to already be rather annoyed with the slow exp gain, and it seems almost impossible to reach certain perks at the end of skill-trees.

Remove learning limit and increase the exp multiplier gain from spending points into skills.

I am OK with the mechanic. But it DOES need more balance. Which I am sure they will do.

For example:
You need more focus points every gained level (1 just is laughable after all the effort you put into gaining that)
Attributes, should be 1 each level or everyother (like fallout does with perks), it seems very random now when you get a point in that.

Why do I think the mechanic is OK?
It forces you to take decisions into what to invest in
and that investment seems real and good for the roleplay, it feels like you will achieve something.

However, it just need s balance as I said. Focus points need to be more easier to come by or make it easier to level (not just the skill level) or decrease the amount you skill level by each perk level. If you know what I mean. There's too many different leveling systems haha

[Pappus]

Your chars die they won't be good at everything anyhow. If you must have it all on max just cheat it.

Put your stats to your focus points and skill gain is actually not slow

[Magic Man]

HMFT

[OldGamer]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by OldGamer:

Why do I think the mechanic is OK?
It forces you to take decisions into what to invest in
and that investment seems real and good for the roleplay, it feels like you will achieve something.

A counterpoint is that removing the 0 skill gain hard cap would STILL allow you to specialize your character, while also allowing you to grind, very slowly, some "unfocused" skill if you suddenly found you need something from it and already invested all your attribute/focus points elsewhere.

Personally, I'd much, much rather have the latter than deal with hard caps in any shape or form.

If I want to keep pew-pewing with my bow, I shouldn't be penalized for not dumping every single attribute point in control - just gain skill increase that much slower, which already happens through non-focused much lower skill point gain.

I do agree but if you said had 3 focus points and 1 attribute skill each level (major level) and every skill level (like say Bow to lvl 75 skill) where you get a perk, you get 1 or 2 more focus point(s) this would limit you having hard caps.

Or as you say, have a cap but still in the background be levelling up, just say if you get to lvl 75 and your learning limit is still at 50, you can't benefit from the perk until you sink a focus point or two into it.

[OldGamer]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Twitch/Pappus:

Put your stats to your focus points and skill gain is actually not slow

The only way you can meaningfully increase some of the non-combat skills (Charm and Roguery come to mind) is through abuse of outright bugs.

You could be capturing every single enemy you encounter for weeks and still be around 50 Roguery or so.

Without "toss a coin to your noble" barter exploit you'll spend your character's entire lifetime before reaching that Charm 100.

I've never used that noble thing and I am nearly charm 100 (like 91 or so). I do talk to them though a lot and help them in battles. But I did build my character around trade, charm, leadership, stewardship & Tactics. I built up Roguery just by killing bandits and ransoming the bounty on the prisoners. (ironically you get also rogue points for prisoners who are lords of factions you don't like)

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

The only way you can meaningfully increase some of the non-combat skills (Charm and Roguery come to mind) is through abuse of outright bugs.

You could be capturing every single enemy you encounter for weeks and still be around 50 Roguery or so.

Without "toss a coin to your noble" barter exploit you'll spend your character's entire lifetime before reaching that Charm 100.

That's not true, Roguery levels up very fast by selling valuable prisoners and raiding around.

Charm is currently the most easy skill to learn by spending influence to support a noble during votes.
Spending 300 influence on a vote at 7 soc + 4 charm focus points i got +45 skills points. And instant 100 relation with the noble.
You can also gain charm by bribing your way out of dangerous battles, and by completing notable quests.

[Pappus]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Twitch/Pappus:

Put your stats to your focus points and skill gain is actually not slow

The only way you can meaningfully increase some of the non-combat skills (Charm and Roguery come to mind) is through abuse of outright bugs.

You could be capturing every single enemy you encounter for weeks and still be around 50 Roguery or so.

Without "toss a coin to your noble" barter exploit you'll spend your character's entire lifetime before reaching that Charm 100.

Dont talk ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. It took me a handful of village raids to get to 50 roguery and I didn't even have my stats in the skill. So who do you wanna fool saying that it is so hard to get to 100 roguery with your stats and the focus points in it.

Steward, Charm, Roguery, Medicine, Engineering, Smithing, Trading, Leadership and tactics are all easy to raise well beyond 100.

The bonuskicker is, that you don't even need to raise steward/engineering/medicine/smithing on your own character. You can make any companion do that.

Game is modable - adjust it to your needs but don't make some weird claims how hard something is to raise.

Charm thing isn't even an exploit you get loads of charm for bartering their horses too. I forgot if kingdom decisions also raise your charm but I think it does and not by a little either. I remember being capped on charm without ever bartering with lords so it must have been that.

[OldGamer]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

I just don't like the hard cap at all.

I actually think attribute/focus points are decently balanced right now - just as you said, it forces the player to actually consider specializing in some skills (even if right now there isn't really any meaningful choice between them, since most high-skill perks don't work anyway).

What I utterly hate about current system is that it completely prohibits progression in non-focused skills beyond certain point, period.

That's pretty much going completely against everything that worked, and worked quite well, in Warband's character progression.

I mean, aside from the fact that weapons are tied to such low skill limits right now, and skill point bonus for weapons is so toned down, that getting around 30 points in any weapon skill is comparable to 150 or so in Warband. Hell, I've been winning tournaments with no-skill-no-gear scrubs even without cheesing combat AI because the difference in no-skill and high-skill weapon speed is so low.

But then you need to think about the flip side. If you didn't have a cap, at least even just a soft cap (so you can't pick up any perks from the levels you increased as I said earlier), then you would have a character very soon being ridiculous in perks and levels. Even though levels are hard to gain, apparently they fixed that in the beta branch, I still think the balance would be sew iff. Although I do agree, it is not pleasant seeing that red. Especially if we go away from your character you play as and your companions. Also another annoying thing is companions can't be levelled up if they are running around the map...or their party can't be seen (unless you find them and run into them) from the clan screen.

[Muscarine]

Then change your specs i dunno what to tell you.
I didn't even minmax social because i don't need max charm, the late perks are bad, i don't need super high leadership, and i'm not interested in trading. I only wanted good relations to see if it makes a difference (spoiler, it barely does in the current state of the game but it's useful for notables).

So i'm sitting with 7 soc and it still reached 225 long before i had my first combat perk barely hit 150. And believe me i'm fighting around a lot, because coincidently that's how you get boatloads of influence to spend.

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by OldGamer:

But then you need to think about the flip side. If you didn't have a cap, at least even just a soft cap (so you can't pick up any perks from the levels you increased as I said earlier), then you would have a character very soon being ridiculous in perks and levels. Even though levels are hard to gain, apparently they fixed that in the beta branch, I still think the balance would be sew iff. Although I do agree, it is not pleasant seeing that red. Especially if we go away from your character you play as and your companions. Also another annoying thing is companions can't be levelled up if they are running around the map...or their party can't be seen (unless you find them and run into them) from the clan screen.

I agree, it's very true the current experience curbe still needs a lot of work, perks need fixing and some need to be completely redesigned.
I also don't like that 3 of the clan roles are spread into the INT attribute.

But as for having to specialise i'm very happy they went that way. Otherwise the optimal way to play would be to grind everything you actually don't intend to use in order to squeeze as much SP as possible. Boring.

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Uh... you do realize 7 points in anything is a specialist build that will absolutely have much different progression within those skills than "generalist" 4-attribute-point build?

You need to change your tone because you're not very well informed.

You can start the game with 7 in a line. So no it's not super high, and like i said in my first post here, you will want 10 if you intend to max a line otherwise you will hit the actual hardcap, i.e red number.
So 7 soc is actually average.

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Muscarine:

But as for having to specialise i'm very happy they went that way. Otherwise the optimal way to play would be to grind everything you actually don't intend to use in order to squeeze as much SP as possible. Boring.

Uh... you already have to do that so you can get more skill increases toward level up so you can get more focus and attribute points...

No, they just level up naturally by just playing around, that's a big difference.

[Pappus]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Twitch/Pappus:

Dont talk ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. It took me a handful of village raids to get to 50 roguery and I didn't even have my stats in the skill

Check yourself, mate.

I speak of my experience with current 1.1 beta. I don't do much raiding, but prisoner sales are not that fast, at all.

Whatever your personal experience, I don't appreciate the attitude. I know damn better than you what MY experience with the game is.

Originally posted by Twitch/Pappus:

Charm thing isn't even an exploit you get loads of charm for bartering their horses too. I forgot if kingdom decisions also raise your charm but I think it does and not by a little either. I remember being capped on charm without ever bartering with lords so it must have been that.

Any policy you introduce that has support from council members increases relationship with them, and gives Charm points.

Originally posted by OldGamer:

But then you need to think about the flip side. If you didn't have a cap, at least even just a soft cap (so you can't pick up any perks from the levels you increased as I said earlier), then you would have a character very soon being ridiculous in perks and levels.

Not if you balance out the progress so non-focused skill gain is very slow.

But still exists.

Originally posted by Twitch/Pappus:

Even though levels are hard to gain, apparently they fixed that in the beta branch

Hah, that's exactly what I've been playing and discussing.

Might be why my experience doesn't match people's who are still on 0.11 main branch.

Originally posted by Muscarine:

So i'm sitting with 7 soc and it still reached 225 long before i had my first combat perk barely hit 150. And believe me i'm fighting around a lot, because coincidently that's how you get boatloads of influence to spend.

Uh... you do realize 7 points in anything is a specialist build that will absolutely have much different progression within those skills than "generalist" 4-attribute-point build?

That is like complaining how hard it is to raise smithing without actually smithing. Do you understand the folly of your argument? Your experience does not reflect the truth - do you at least realize that?

The only things that are a bit longer to raise is 1h/Polearm/riding/athletics without exploits, because it takes combat time and even big battles are over in mere seconds.

[Muscarine]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

Originally posted by Muscarine:

No, they just level up naturally by just playing around, that's a big difference.

Your progression is that much slower compared to spreading skill gain around every, even non-focused, skill early on.

And you'll get to enjoy the grind that much earlier, because skill point requirements are a geometric progression.

How ? I'm level 20 currently and still plenty of green to go.

I will even end up with a surplus i don't know where to use.