Infantry against horse archers

[Pititan]

Is there any good strat to counter a "large" (30+) horse archer onslaught with infantry?..

No one seems to mention this, but the khuzaits are extremely effective, and the best strat I've seen to dealing with them is to simply line up, fire, and hope for the best...

It's driven me absolutely insane trying to find a good and effective way of dealing with this...

I've savescum and tried strat after strat and it's simply not possible to fight and win without massive losses against a large or equal-strength that uses a substantial amount of horse archery...

Now, I now what your gonna say.
"Use fire with fire"
No other unit class needs this.... You can perfectly counter most other units with every other unit.. except the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ horse archer ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥...

Have you guys found anything, I don't remember having this much trouble with the khergits in warband...

[Pistachio]

Khregits in Warband only knew how to run straight into enemy formation, but now the AI actually knows how to keep distance. I'd say it is an improvement and rightfully missile cavs should be this scary.

It is true that missile cavs can absolutely destroy infantry only armies in this game. In my opinion, in early game, with only melee foot soldiers, there is no good counter to this. I just run away from any group that has missile cavs.

Eventually you have to build your cavs, foot archers, or even your own missile cavs, and only then, they stop becoming such a big problem.

Before that, no real way out, just run away.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by KFSM Pititan:

..
Have you guys found anything, I don't remember having this much trouble with the khergits in warband...

HA in Warband didn't have an AI that used them effectively. In Bannerlord, massed HA can be tough.

What do you have to work with?

If you say you have a roster filled with recruits, then I'm going to congratulate you for donating so much EXP to your enemy. It takes a gracious soul to be that giving... ;)

IF you have units that can survive a bit, go into circle/square or even Shield Wall and try to limit the HA's movement. Either move into the trees, near impassable terrain, along a hill that obscures your troops from at least one direction, or move towards the edge of the map. (Preferably, the edge near where you spawned so you can get reinforements easy.)

If you have no way to damage them, you have to restrict their movement until you can start trapping them. Once trapped, you have to kill them... If you can do neither, why are you out there fighting them? :)

Report back with your resources and I'll give you a decent working strat.. kinda. ;)

PS: The "counter every unit with any other unit" thing doesn't work. A Recruit can't counter a Legionnaire. Light horse against heavy infantry with a polearm aren't likely going to be effective, either, if they get hung up in the infantry's formation. It's really all about context, the battlefield, what you have and what you can bring to bear on the enemy. It's not rock/paper/scissors, of course, but neither is it "anything will do."

[Syllabus]

Ultimately, there is no solution.

All the solutions presented do work, but only when certain conditions are met. If every condition is in favor of your opponent's HAs, then there is simply no winning in that scenario -- which is to be expected.

Avoid open field combat against enemy parties of similar or larger size / Go after the ones that you outnumber significantly / Delay the confrontation until you manage to build a better army with more suitable units to counter HAs <-- this is about the only thing you can do.

[Pititan]

Originally posted by Locklave:

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Here's the thing.
They don't really give you anytime to set up a defence. They charge you as soon as they spawn.. and you have to rush and pick a formation, and a spot in less then 20.... And there's getting your men there... I'd usually charge what little cavalry I have to at least distract... But now I have no cavalry to defend when they're cavalry strikes (usually melee cav cover the flanks)....
I will always have my range in loose formation. Not my infantry though. The infantry is always in Shieldwall, and I would not consider putting them in loose because they won't hold their shields up (to muly knowledge, haven't tried lately), this would actually leave them really vulnerable.. specially since most of my guys don't have range...
My infantry is composed of oathsworn, legionnaires, and some wildlings, and sturgian shock.. but most are oathsworn or legionnairies... Which lack thrown weapons. Putting these guys in loose would be sending them to their deaths.

I have noticed that they aren't as effective on foot, and what I've been doing is lining up and shooting for horses..

Originally posted by Pistachio:

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That's what made them really easy to deal with. They we're lightly armored making them really vulnerable to crossbows, unlike the khuzaits, who bare more resemblance scary hit and run cataphracts.... In warband they also dealth much less damage, unlike khuzaits which seem to 2-3 shot a legionnaire. It's insane.

I would imagine that early ingame, facing Archer cav is an absolute nightmare, and I too just run away... But I'm really late ingame now, 2400 days in. I can muster an Armada of about 250 guys and most of which are foot soldiers and archers along with a small taskforce of vlandian cav, and 2-3 aseria archers...
With this setup..I've found I can't fight khizait troops bigger than me.. it's just not possible. The horse archers disorganize and couse just enough damage that we can not withstand their infantry assault...

My usual start is to line up my archers and wreck their I fantry as the approach, so that by the time they reach my wall, I charge my cav to counter their cav charge and infantry to kill what ever infantry they ha e left. I can't do this against HA because after surviving the., most of my melee cav is gone and my inf has suffered some losses, and there's still their enemy melee cav and whatever horse archers are scattered around.

[Halfgeek]

Originally posted by Locklave:

They are countered by foot archers of equal/greater numbers or Infantry using throwing weapons with shields for clear reasons (the thrown stuff destroys the horses forcing them on foot).

Foot archers are never a counter to HA. At best, you will loose 2 archers for every 1 HA you kill.

The only foot archer that can defeat 1:1 HA is if you go all out Fian Champions. The rest get slaughtered, because they lack the accuracy vs a moving target and they stand there taking shots from the HA in return.

To counter HA with foot archers, you need a good force of cav with shields, to harass and keep the HA busy, while your own archers take their time to kill the HA.

[Pititan]

Originally posted by Syllabus:

Then that's mean just staying away from the steppes all together..

I've decided to strictly target smaller.. that is, if I can even catch up.

Originally posted by Morkonan:

Snip

Make no mistake. Their cheap tactics are getting them alot of xp off me. My troops are all tier 4-5-6... I have no recruits and nothing below T4.

Circle/square does nothing. It only makes their aiming easier.. specially circle. Not if it was a Tortuga, I'd say otherwise. But even then, that won't spare from the enemys' advancing infantry and range.

Oh great. Play a game of tag or hide and go seek with horse archers?

What I meant by "counter every unit with any unit", is troop type, not necessarily tier, of course an army of legionnaires is gonna steamroll some recruits.. not oathsworn vs legionnaire or sergeants, is another story. Infantry has no problem against other Infantry, neither do archers. You can charge light cav at infantry flanks or from behind and get decent results. A nice Shieldwall can withstand shock cavalry and so on.... Not the case with HA. A certain situation must be met to even stand a chance.


Warband horse Archers we're stupid, but at the end of the day, after their idiotic charge they performed their role as harassing cavalry. They we're lightly armored and quick. Dealing pinches of damage here and there and getting out... Khuzaits HA feels like taleworlds made a lancer, armor and all, and then gave him a bow... High tier horse archers feel like a cataphract with a bow and arrow.
It feels like to counter the horse archer, you must become a horse archer.

[Halfgeek]

Originally posted by KFSM Pititan:

It feels like to counter the horse archer, you must become a horse archer.

Horse archers have 1 counter besides massing your own HA.

Good melee cav, lead them and charge to your left flank. The HA will always approach on their right so they can fire on you, and that's your left flank.

Lead your melee cav into them and watch the mayhem, as you order your cav to charge near impact.

The other counter if you lack many melee cav, is foot archers + cav combo mentioned above.

[Seijana]

I would say it depends on the battlefield. If you can force them to get in to close quarters, do so. In a village, try getting everyone inside a barn or something. In hilly terrain, try getting everyone behind some sort of cover that might mean the horse archers have to get close to get line of sight to your soldiers. The latter strategy is unlikely to work but that's better that certain to fail.

If it's open grassland or desert, don't engage, try to escape or bargain with the enemy leader. Considering what one can do as a single horse archer against sword infantry.... https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2087911701

[Rose]

First off... you must be one with the Horse Archer to beat the Horse Archer


Second, Get you Archers on a hill 2 groups of them one above the other, then your Infantry in a Shield wall at the bottom of said Hill, Pikes right behind them in loose, Any HAs you have to the right as their HAs go Left almost every time, Cavalry Left side, Enemy HAs Charge you charge them with Heavy Cav as soon as they pull back fall back to your lines, Rinse and repeat. (Don't forget to take your troops off auto rotate formations!!
Manually move them to the Dirrection you want)
No cavalry? Use yourself to bait the enemy HAs and keep their arrows on you, and try to live while your archers eat them

[Orclover]

The mongols are the except for a reason!

Time for a history lesson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szxPar0BcMo

[~ Fabulous ~]

lure them into a mountain to get that mountain map, put you back against the unclimbable part and embrace it, if the horses dont want come to you harass them till they do.

[dulany67]

The answer is combined arms. 1:1 arguments are stupid because 1:1 is not how the game is played.

Lead cavalry yourself. Do not follow when they ride off. Eventually, your archers will damage them as long as your cav prevents them from focusing on your archers. If your infantry ever gets a hold of them in the chaos of battle they are dead.

If you have few cav stay close to your formation and try to bait them in. If you have no cav you shouldn't be fighting 30 HA, but if it happens all you can do is use the terrain.

[Swirler]

If you hold the far left side of the battlefield, like right up against the border the horse archers can't scoot around your army properly. They'll just sit in front of your line, so you can just shieldwall and wait them out.

Horse archers only have a good firing arc to the left-side of their horses, they can only fire a little bit to their right side.

If you have cavalry you can always try skirmishing to the right side of the battlefield a little to distract the horse archers then pull back.

With some archers behind your men, assuming they have a decent angle to shoot over them eventually they will whittle them down.
You will have to micro-manage "hold fire" "fire at will" command though, otherwise your archers will burn through their ammunition quite fast. Wait until you can see the whites in their eyes then fire.

That said if the enemy is bringing a far larger army with a ton of horse cav even this isn't going to do much more than delay the inevitable. Some battles i've had against forces with superior cavalry+ they're high tier cavalry+ horse archers are just really hard to win without a strong force of your own.

I've had a few battles against them where I got that small map with a valley in it, and I just annihilate the horsemen all day there. It's a killing field.


Next best thing you can do is bring lots of your own cavalry and counter them yourself. Horse archers are often quite bad in melee against other cavalry. I like to use javelins here, they seem to be very effective vs cavalry without shields.


Units without shields are a burden against them, and any other archer forces out there.


I haven't bothered with circle/square formations honestly. I don't think they do much other than make your men a big target for the archers to hit your forces.
Soldiers don't use their shields well in those formations so it doesn't work.
And spearmen are trash against everything atm. They don't have a bracing action to use vs horses and the timing for the spear thrust is so so small that even you as the player will struggle to get it right to land a hit.

Circle/square formations miiiight be useful against an initial charge from pure cavalry alone but I can't confirm this. Horses in this game seem to be able to break through very dense formations without much hassle.

[FreezeZ]

Every tactic against them is hit or miss. None is certain win and dont believe ppl that tell you that it realistic. Biggest problems is that Infantry dont use shields outside 3 formations and armour is not very usefull against arrows. Also khuzait HA have way to much armor. Just yesterday I had battle where their HA Stopped infornt of my positions and were against twice as many of my archers and still were able to inflict heavy losses.

There are few things you should try:
1) If you have party of 250 you should have atleast 40 cav in there. Use them when HA are close and they start to slow down. It will disrupt their manouver. Kepp you cavalery on them but dont overextend. If you own archers are in good position, combined attack from cav and fire from archers should inflict heavy losses on HA. Best option to do that is to ride with your cav and keep them on follow but in big battle it is dangerous as you lose ability to control whole battle

2)Simply as that. Find big hill, put you army there. And pray that your archers are good. If you play Sturgia...you are ♥♥♥♥♥♥.

3) It depends on map but you can try cornering them. You take you infantry and run after them, trying to block their movement. Some will slip away, some will get cought and some will try to break through your formation. I dont advise this tactic in battles where your enemy has huge infantry force.

Sadly game dont offer many options to fight them and with problems I mentioned earlier, HA are very difficult to counter and AI in big battles is completely unable to respond correctly.

[Syllabus]

Originally posted by FreezeZ:

Every tactic against them is hit or miss. None is certain win and dont believe ppl that tell you that it realistic.

Except every person who tried the stunt of suggesting it was imbalanced or something, in the end, failed to provide even a single bit of evidence whereas the people who tirelessly explained the why HAs are generally powerful in real life, have given plenty of evidence.

Biggest problems is that Infantry dont use shields outside 3 formations and armour is not very usefull against arrows. Also khuzait HA have way to much armor. Just yesterday I had battle where their HA Stopped infornt of my positions and were against twice as many of my archers and still were able to inflict heavy losses.

So the armor "doesn't do anything" for your troops, and not even a sentence later, "Khuzait horse archers have too much armor." ... so, why would Khuzait HAs having "too much armor" mean anything when supposedly, armor doesn't do anything?

LOL

Sadly game dont offer many options to fight them and with problems I mentioned earlier, HA are very difficult to counter and AI in big battles is completely unable to respond correctly.

There are plenty of options in the game. The problem is people usually complaining about the HA take none of the options, and insist their objectively inferior force should be able to defeat them somehow.

I dunno. They must be wanting magic or something.