So uhm, whats the point in daggers?

[Scar]

I mean they cant block and practically useless, you can't dodge?

[Boicote]

It's for hardcore players to create a YouTube video about how to conquer the entire map using only a dagger.

[Apples]

Originally posted by Boicote:

It's for hardcore players to create a YouTube video about how to conquer the entire map using only a dagger.

This probably..

@OP

I'd expect them to be used in towns, but i don't think you can? never tried myself tbh now that i think about it.

[Scar]

So looks good but pointless :/

[Welcome to Idiocracy 2023]

Useless like in most RPG's.

[Рапира Вампира]

you can shank retreating looters with it since it weights less then a sword and allows you to catch up with them while on foot. BTW I think you can block with it or at least you can with a seax.

[Swirler]

Originally posted by Lexa's Flamekeeper:

I mean they cant block and practically useless, you can't dodge?

Seems to be the case but I haven't tried them out much.

Originally posted by Munithe EXT:

I think they are to use in confined spaces where you can't swing larger weapons or when you're squashed against shields and can't swing.

And yup.

I think historically daggers were very useful for formation fighting, if you had a group of spearmen or halberds fighting some really well armoured opponents you would knock them to the ground move forward and let your dagger equipped guys slide the blades in between the spaces and weak points to kill them.

Daggers would do a lot of the actual killing, while the other equipment used was designed to weaken the enemy or disarm them into a state where the daggers could be put to work.

So for instance, long polearms like spears or billhooks would knock riders off their horses, and get stuck into their enemies eventually weakening them.
And even enemies not on horseback a wall of spears is not something you want to charge into, so it would help slow the combat down to a crawl, again this helps your dagger friends get in among the enemy and do their dirty work.

Sometimes mallets and hammers were used on particularly well armoured enemies but I think that was more toward the later part of the medieval era.
When even daggers struggled to make much impact on the the really strong plate metal the pure blunt force of the heavier mallets would just knock them unconscious and eventually turn their internal organs to mush breaking ribs and so on.

As a bonus they attackers would have a nice set of armour to use with no holes in.

Although this is kind of a perfect storm scenario. In most cases armoured knights would move in formations, so they would basically tank the enemy attacks and just bulldoze straight through the enemy centre line to the rear and force the enemy to withdraw or else risk getting flanked by very hard to kill opponents.

There is also a psychological aspect to this charge as well. Seeing a unit of heavily armoured men running or riding toward you on heavy armoured horses would scare anyone to death. No doubt it gave a lot of them a bit of an ego.

If you watch some of the crusader battles you can see the heavily armoured knights just get bogged down and baited by the much lighter enemies then surrounded and annihilated. Which is something they weren't used to in Western/central Europe where you would often have lots of hills/rivers/forests around which made hit/run tactics hard to do.

Not that i'm an expert in that area or anything, There's a few good youtube channels out there that cover those historical battles.

[Scar]

Well i noticed we can't even take throwing daggers into towns, like wtf xD

[Goose]

Originally posted by Lexa's Flamekeeper:

Well i noticed we can't even take throwing daggers into towns, like wtf xD

Thank god. Fully automatic assault daggers are right winged talking points.

[Apples]

Originally posted by Lexa's Flamekeeper:

Well i noticed we can't even take throwing daggers into towns, like wtf xD

Don't worry in a future patch you'll have to leave your hands at the gate, as they can be used as weapons... until you get a perk to conceal them.

[Maj.Tryhard]

Originally posted by Swirler:

Originally posted by Lexa's Flamekeeper:

I mean they cant block and practically useless, you can't dodge?

Seems to be the case but I haven't tried them out much.

Originally posted by Munithe EXT:

I think they are to use in confined spaces where you can't swing larger weapons or when you're squashed against shields and can't swing.

And yup.

I think historically daggers were very useful for formation fighting, if you had a group of spearmen or halberds fighting some really well armoured opponents you would knock them to the ground move forward and let your dagger equipped guys slide the blades in between the spaces and weak points to kill them.

Daggers would do a lot of the actual killing, while the other equipment used was designed to weaken the enemy or disarm them into a state where the daggers could be put to work.

So for instance, long polearms like spears or billhooks would knock riders off their horses, and get stuck into their enemies eventually weakening them.
And even enemies not on horseback a wall of spears is not something you want to charge into, so it would help slow the combat down to a crawl, again this helps your dagger friends get in among the enemy and do their dirty work.

Sometimes mallets and hammers were used on particularly well armoured enemies but I think that was more toward the later part of the medieval era.
When even daggers struggled to make much impact on the the really strong plate metal the pure blunt force of the heavier mallets would just knock them unconscious and eventually turn their internal organs to mush breaking ribs and so on.

As a bonus they attackers would have a nice set of armour to use with no holes in.

Although this is kind of a perfect storm scenario. In most cases armoured knights would move in formations, so they would basically tank the enemy attacks and just bulldoze straight through the enemy centre line to the rear and force the enemy to withdraw or else risk getting flanked by very hard to kill opponents.

There is also a psychological aspect to this charge as well. Seeing a unit of heavily armoured men running or riding toward you on heavy armoured horses would scare anyone to death. No doubt it gave a lot of them a bit of an ego.

If you watch some of the crusader battles you can see the heavily armoured knights just get bogged down and baited by the much lighter enemies then surrounded and annihilated. Which is something they weren't used to in Western/central Europe where you would often have lots of hills/rivers/forests around which made hit/run tactics hard to do.

Not that i'm an expert in that area or anything, There's a few good youtube channels out there that cover those historical battles.

I like where your head's at, but I think you're a little off the mark. While some military forces have put great emphasis on the use of a short sword, such as the gladius, daggers were never really employed much as a war weapon.

You are correct in that they were typically used to deliver a killing blow against somebody whose armor was difficult to otherwise penetrate, but this isn't something you would often see in the heat of battle. Daggers weren't valued for their ability to get through armor, a heavier weapon is much better suited to that purpose, they were valued for being able to get around armor. It's a tool of self-defense or assassination, not a weapon for the battlefield. I'll add that I'm no expert either, so I could be wrong. I've done a fair bit of study on the subject though.

It's definitely a shame you can't wear one with your civilian attire in-game. Guess to RP we'd just have to change outfits constantly depending on where we're going.

[Finn]

Originally posted by Lexa's Flamekeeper:

I mean they cant block and practically useless, you can't dodge?

u can dodge.. takes practice but i dodge sword swings all the time

[Hellingen]

Originally posted by Maj.Tryhard:

Originally posted by Swirler:

Seems to be the case but I haven't tried them out much.


And yup.

I think historically daggers were very useful for formation fighting, if you had a group of spearmen or halberds fighting some really well armoured opponents you would knock them to the ground move forward and let your dagger equipped guys slide the blades in between the spaces and weak points to kill them.

Daggers would do a lot of the actual killing, while the other equipment used was designed to weaken the enemy or disarm them into a state where the daggers could be put to work.

So for instance, long polearms like spears or billhooks would knock riders off their horses, and get stuck into their enemies eventually weakening them.
And even enemies not on horseback a wall of spears is not something you want to charge into, so it would help slow the combat down to a crawl, again this helps your dagger friends get in among the enemy and do their dirty work.

Sometimes mallets and hammers were used on particularly well armoured enemies but I think that was more toward the later part of the medieval era.
When even daggers struggled to make much impact on the the really strong plate metal the pure blunt force of the heavier mallets would just knock them unconscious and eventually turn their internal organs to mush breaking ribs and so on.

As a bonus they attackers would have a nice set of armour to use with no holes in.

Although this is kind of a perfect storm scenario. In most cases armoured knights would move in formations, so they would basically tank the enemy attacks and just bulldoze straight through the enemy centre line to the rear and force the enemy to withdraw or else risk getting flanked by very hard to kill opponents.

There is also a psychological aspect to this charge as well. Seeing a unit of heavily armoured men running or riding toward you on heavy armoured horses would scare anyone to death. No doubt it gave a lot of them a bit of an ego.

If you watch some of the crusader battles you can see the heavily armoured knights just get bogged down and baited by the much lighter enemies then surrounded and annihilated. Which is something they weren't used to in Western/central Europe where you would often have lots of hills/rivers/forests around which made hit/run tactics hard to do.

Not that i'm an expert in that area or anything, There's a few good youtube channels out there that cover those historical battles.

I like where your head's at, but I think you're a little off the mark. While some military forces have put great emphasis on the use of a short sword, such as the gladius, daggers were never really employed much as a war weapon.

You are correct in that they were typically used to deliver a killing blow against somebody whose armor was difficult to otherwise penetrate, but this isn't something you would often see in the heat of battle. Daggers weren't valued for their ability to get through armor, a heavier weapon is much better suited to that purpose, they were valued for being able to get around armor. It's a tool of self-defense or assassination, not a weapon for the battlefield. I'll add that I'm no expert either, so I could be wrong. I've done a fair bit of study on the subject though.

It's definitely a shame you can't wear one with your civilian attire in-game. Guess to RP we'd just have to change outfits constantly depending on where we're going.

My answers are only for late medieval era. Factors can change otherwise but logic stay the same :
-They were used to finish an enemy/ close quarter/ wrestling situation or in civilian context, any context actually, as long as you wear one and have no better weapon. Simple as that.
-The blunt force of mallet/hammer you mention is far from enough to knock someone inconscious (hmb fighter here), unless they have too tight helmet and thin padding (at full force). For the organs maybe if you only have mail and/or only gambeson. Plate would protect from that. That's why some polehammer/poleaxe have shapes to damage the steel rather than flat surface (depends of course, you see many variations)
-Most of the battles during late medieval era were siege warfare actually but you'd be right writing about formations since they would have squire/page and some men-at-arm with them, either on foot or horseback.
-Actually daggers (at least for late medieval era) were part of the weapon set of any men-at-arm or even archers etc, the most specialized form is the rondel dagger for armored fighters.
You can watch some channels on YT about those topics (tods'workshop, scholagladiatoria, knyght errant etc) easy to access and great quality.

[Syllabus]

Originally posted by Swirler:

I think historically daggers were very useful for formation fighting, if you had a group of spearmen or halberds fighting some really well armoured opponents you would knock them to the ground move forward and let your dagger equipped guys slide the blades in between the spaces and weak points to kill them.

Daggers would do a lot of the actual killing, while the other equipment used was designed to weaken the enemy or disarm them into a state where the daggers could be put to work.

So for instance, long polearms like spears or billhooks would knock riders off their horses, and get stuck into their enemies eventually weakening them.
And even enemies not on horseback a wall of spears is not something you want to charge into, so it would help slow the combat down to a crawl, again this helps your dagger friends get in among the enemy and do their dirty work.

Sometimes mallets and hammers were used on particularly well armoured enemies but I think that was more toward the later part of the medieval era.
When even daggers struggled to make much impact on the the really strong plate metal the pure blunt force of the heavier mallets would just knock them unconscious and eventually turn their internal organs to mush breaking ribs and so on.

As a bonus they attackers would have a nice set of armour to use with no holes in.

...which isekai fantasy is that from... because, it sure as hell has nothing to do with how things happened on this Earth...

...Although this is kind of a perfect storm scenario. In most cases armoured knights would move in formations, so they would basically tank the enemy attacks and just bulldoze straight through the enemy centre line to the rear and force the enemy to withdraw or else risk getting flanked by very hard to kill opponents.

There is also a psychological aspect to this charge as well. Seeing a unit of heavily armoured men running or riding toward you on heavy armoured horses would scare anyone to death. No doubt it gave a lot of them a bit of an ego.

If you watch some of the crusader battles you can see the heavily armoured knights just get bogged down and baited by the much lighter enemies then surrounded and annihilated. Which is something they weren't used to in Western/central Europe where you would often have lots of hills/rivers/forests around which made hit/run tactics hard to do.

...please, someone make this stop..

[Hellingen]

Originally posted by Sheepify:

I assume you haven't done any steel-on-steel, because otherwise you'd be intimately aware just how exhausting getting just banged around with blunted swords is. And just how badly a seemingly inconsequential hit will bruise you.

There is a reason a lot of HEMA places do not allow hitting the head even with full bascinet on. Hits to the head, penetrating or not, are a really, really bad thing. I have heard first-hand accounts of people getting fully, and unintentionally, knocked out simply taking a practice sword to the helmet. Or people getting broken ribs with a custom-fitted armor with superior modern padding just from casual sparring (so not exactly a life-or-death situation with the increased force it promotes).

The spikes on these medieval weapons are there to aggravate the inflicted injuries, but not necessary for incapacitation of the opponent.

We are off-topic but I'll reply anyway :

Hum I assume your first part is replying to what I said about not getting knock unconscious ?
Because I just talked about being K.O with a strike from maillet/hammer. Bruises can happen depending on what armor and where you've been hit.
And just so you know, I do fight, I'm a buhurt fighter (I said "hmb" in previous post), and I'm also an armorer.

HEMA has those rules because there is generaly no armor involved in the practice, just modern equipment.
And hum I don't know how such a knock out happend because swords are really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ light, there are so light almost no one use them in buhurt except for duels.
I've even taken full force hits from axes to the head in tournaments, I just saw a black screen and fought back immediately, so I don't know what the hell happend for those people to get injuries from such casual sparring. I will say it politely and in a friendly manner so don't feel attacked, but to me those "injuries" are somehow ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ considering my experience.
(I can send you tournament videos in private if you want to see for yourself)

Depends on which spikes you're talking here, lucerne/poleaxes etc have different kind and that's why I said :"depends of course, you see many variations"

[Syllabus]

Originally posted by Hellingen:

Hum I assume your first part is replying to what I said about not getting knock unconscious ?
Because I just talked about being K.O with a strike from such a weapon. Bruises can happen depending on what armor and where you've been hit.
And just so you know, I do fight, I'm a buhurt fighter (I said "hmb" in previous post), and I'm also an armorer.

HEMA has those rules because there is no armor involved in the practice, just modern equipment.
And hum I don't know how such a knock out happend because swords are really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ light, there are so light almost no one use them in buhurt except for duels.

Why did they call a certain move, where the fighter reverses the grip and holds the blade of the sword and strikes with the hilt, a "mortschlag/mordhau"?

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't give it such a gruesome name if the damage done was just meant nothing with a helmet on, right?