The problem with couched lances

[Poljanan]

Ever wonder why couched lancing in this game feels so underwhelming compared to warband?
Well it's because of how your character holds the lance.
https://imgur.com/0qwt7R7
Instead of utilizing most of the lance's length, your character holds the lance halfway through so that 200+ reach lance still ends up getting outranged by peasants with pitchforks.
Not to mention that the way your character holds it feels very awkward. Lancers usually tuck the lance under their armpit to cushion it. I don't know why they changed this when they already got so many basic things right with warband.

[Poljanan]

*double post*

[Badger BrownCoat]

ah, poly-annan;

always happy to argue with people who *clearly* know more about history...

..and ignore anything- like the lance rests that have brought up?twice?-
that doesn't suit his/her argument.
after all it was in a game I played so it must be that way always

.. oh, i'm glad you decided what "era" this game is in now;
*because it sure doesn't seem to know*

but i think we're seeing a pattern and that's easily solved...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjWe31S_0g

this message has been brought to you by Random Burst of Nerd Rage ; available at finer forums near you .

[Poljanan]

The arm guards on the lances were later invented to prevent you from losing your grip on the lance during impact. men-at-arms and other lance cavalry still held their lances near the bottom of the shaft because it's just common sense that you want your lance to overextend as much as possible. This isn't even an issue about balance. Remember you are holding a lance. Not a spear. You want that lance to be bearing its entire weight on whatever you are aiming it at.

[Poljanan]

Also, lancers not holding their lances properly is also one reason why some lancers like the Eleftheroi units really suck right now. These are supposed to be light shock cavalry but they are really weak because they can't abuse the length advantage of their lances so you can just chop them up once they get stuck with your infantry. By comparison, vlandian knights only do so well because they have heavily armored horses but they still miss most of their lance charges. Most of their kills are from close quarters combat.

[Atlar]

Lances suck cause armor doesn't matter and swinging polearms are op...
Compared to Warband (New Dawn):
You NEED lances to crack heavily armored targets and you CAN'T swing polearms from horseback.

[ifitbl33ds]

I can only speculate but in my opinion this is part of the general nerfing of many things in the game.

For example in WB you could just "Mount and Blade" everything.

In Bannerlord however you can have the longest sword but the attack animation when mounted is either horizontal, which goes over a foot man's head, (good for unhorsing enemies of course) or like a golfput, where if you miss by riding "too far" out with your mega long two handed sword it is very likely that the looter with the 6 inch knife won't miss and slash! Speedbonus! There goes half of your health...

I do understand that cavalry was unbalanced in previous games where being on foot could be a death sentence. That obviously needed to be fixed for multiplayer (which I suspect is the focus for taleworlds) and it IS good that they did something. But as someone who plays only singleplayer and enjoys cutting (lancing has a low dps =p) through a dozen looters a minute it's an absolute nuisance and it somewhat concerns what other nerfs we may see in future updates.

[DabaDOO]

One thing that needs to be said; a medieval lance is long. At least 3, maybe 4 meter long. Longest spear that can be crafted in the game is around 250-300. That is not a fine lance. It is a long spear. It can be a fine infantry weapon but not a cavalry lance. So it is just neatural to be felt short or underpowered by the user of the lance.

I am not familiar with previous titles, so i am not sure what is the difference between these games lances, but those lances just falls short in reference to real world lances.

[Poljanan]

Originally posted by DabaDOO:

One thing that needs to be said; a medieval lance is long. At least 3, maybe 4 meter long. Longest spear that can be crafted in the game is around 250-300. That is not a fine lance. It is a long spear. It can be a fine infantry weapon but not a cavalry lance. So it is just neatural to be felt short or underpowered by the user of the lance.

I am not familiar with previous titles, so i am not sure what is the difference between these games lances, but those lances just falls short in reference to real world lances.

Lances in warband were LONG. But as a compromise, they were very hard to use in melee which is why you bring a secondary weapon like a sword or a mace that you switch to once you get stuck. Lances are not supposed to be used as a poking weapon. Heck, medieval lances were designed to shatter on impact. They were a one time thing.

Originally posted by ifitbl33ds:

I can only speculate but in my opinion this is part of the general nerfing of many things in the game.

For example in WB you could just "Mount and Blade" everything.

In Bannerlord however you can have the longest sword but the attack animation when mounted is either horizontal, which goes over a foot man's head, (good for unhorsing enemies of course) or like a golfput, where if you miss by riding "too far" out with your mega long two handed sword it is very likely that the looter with the 6 inch knife won't miss and slash! Speedbonus! There goes half of your health...

I do understand that cavalry was unbalanced in previous games where being on foot could be a death sentence. That obviously needed to be fixed for multiplayer (which I suspect is the focus for taleworlds) and it IS good that they did something. But as someone who plays only singleplayer and enjoys cutting (lancing has a low dps =p) through a dozen looters a minute it's an absolute nuisance and it somewhat concerns what other nerfs we may see in future updates.

I honestly suspect this is the case. Plenty of favorite tactics in Warband just doesn't apply in Bannerlord anymore. The only constant is that horse archery is as easy as ever.

[Dealman]

Underwhelming in what world? They one-shot everything. Learn how to use it instead of complaining because you're unable to charge into a bunch of spears from the front.

It's perfectly viable against all targets, even spearmen if you hit them from an angle or behind.

If anything maybe the AI could use some improvements to better utilize the couched lances, but do they need a buff in any way, shape or form? No, not at all.

Especially not in MP where they already reign supreme.

Couched lances in Warband was the most braindead way to play it, it required absolutely no skill whatsoever and you could just fly around the battlefield one-shotting everything.

I'm glad this is not the case in Bannerlord, they're still really good but a lot harder to use.

Gameplay balance shouldn't only be based on realism or historical accuracy, if it was, this game would be horrible to play.

[Sea Base]

Originally posted by Dealman:

Especially not in MP where they already reign supreme.

Great job of showing yourself to be a troll. Couch lances even loose out to just stabbing with a spear on horse back, and not even in the same league as the swingable polearms in MP.

[Heron]

Originally posted by SeaBoar:

Originally posted by Dealman:

Especially not in MP where they already reign supreme.

Great job of showing yourself to be a troll. Couch lances even loose out to just stabbing with a spear on horse back, and not even in the same league as the swingable polearms in MP.

I disagree. Couching looses in a head on charge in MP, but can be extremely handy to oneshot opponents / horses caught off guard. Swingable polearms are situational because they are vulnerable to projectiles.

[Halfgeek]

Cav AI is really the issue, not shorter lances. They love to do frontal charge even against spearmen ready for it. Against crossbows or upgraded archers, it's a suicide move.

When you flank with them though, they do work, and really well.

[Sea Base]

Originally posted by Rome Heron:

Originally posted by SeaBoar:

Great job of showing yourself to be a troll. Couch lances even loose out to just stabbing with a spear on horse back, and not even in the same league as the swingable polearms in MP.

I disagree. Couching looses in a head on charge in MP, but can be extremely handy to oneshot opponents / horses caught off guard. Swingable polearms are situational because they are vulnerable to projectiles.

No more vulnrable than any other horse bound unit and you also oneshot pretty much everything just down to the relative velocities.
That's why you see Khuz win defense sieges more often than not, just a couple of players with the swingable polearm massacre a tone of attackers before they reach the castle, something that is not replicated by the other factions.

[Heron]

Originally posted by SeaBoar:

Originally posted by Rome Heron:

I disagree. Couching looses in a head on charge in MP, but can be extremely handy to oneshot opponents / horses caught off guard. Swingable polearms are situational because they are vulnerable to projectiles.

No more vulnrable than any other horse bound unit and you also oneshot pretty much everything just down to the relative velocities.
That's why you see Khuz win defense sieges more often than not, just a couple of players with the swingable polearm massacre a tone of attackers before they reach the castle, something that is not replicated by the other factions.

Of course shieldless polearms are more vulnerable to projectiles compared to shielded lancers. They are also inferiour in non stationary cav vs cav fights. Play some skirmish and see for yourself.

[Dealman]

Originally posted by SeaBoar:

Great job of showing yourself to be a troll. Couch lances even loose out to just stabbing with a spear on horse back, and not even in the same league as the swingable polearms in MP.

Ah, yes the good old "he doesn't share the same opinion as me, thus he must be a troll!" mentality. Sure must be fun living in such a small bubble.

Then explain to me how one single Vlandia Knight, Khuzait Lancer or Aserai Mamluke can single-handedly disintegrate an entire opposing cavalry unit in Captain mode?

Go ahead and play a bit of Skirmish and you'll see that cavalry is by far the most popular choice, unless you get maybe Battania.

When couching a lance you do sacrifice some length, but instead do not have to time your thrust perfectly and aiming it is super easy, especially in first-person view.

If you're that incapable of using a couched lance in MP, you must be really, really bad.

As for polearms, they're just broken and overpowered overall. Once they get a minimum distance to deal damage similar to spears - they'll be fine.