Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord

Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord

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Rykmentti 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 4:54
Is using macros in multiplayer considered cheating? (Yes it is)
So I was playing a siege and I noticed this guy who was very good at manual blocks, making seemingly impossible blocks and swings. (Turning to the character right while doing a left side swing or doing multiple blocks for my feints with no margin for error etc.)

So I dueled him couple times and then I confronted him about it and he told me he was using macros. A program, that you can use to simulate keyboard presses and mouse movement and then designate an input that simulates those inputs. So you can have 8 different inputs. 4 for left/right handed swing, overhead swing, thrust and 4 for blocks instead mouse movement and two buttons.

He also told me that in regular M&B there was an option to use inputs for all 4 blocks and 4 strikes. So it was pretty much stupid to use mouse aiming when you had superior control scheme right in front of you. (I didn't even know it existed back in M&B)

Are there inputs for all strikes and blocks in the control menu somewhere? I couldn't find it, if not, isn't that an unfair advantage over other players? Since we can't use this same control method in the game without external program.

I told him about this and he didn't consider it cheating, since he was doing same thing that was viable in M&B Multiplayer.

But still... If this is allowed, I'm sure as hell are going to learn everything I need to know about macros and start using them, since it seems to be so much more effective and reliable way to play the game.

I couldn't find any thread discussing this so I decided to make one. Discuss!

Edit: Please developers. If this thread is any clue, community would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this matter. Thank you!

Edit 2: Thank you for the clarification.
最后由 Rykmentti 编辑于; 2020 年 4 月 10 日 上午 8:45
引用自 123:
My information from TW is that macros are, of course, cheating in multiplayer.
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正在显示第 211 - 225 条,共 437 条留言
Blind 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:23 
引用自 Rose
引用自 Blind
There's no doubt here that it gives an advantage, just determining what is acceptable and what isnt. If the devs dont say its illegal and everyone is able to download and make macros freely, then why is it cheating?
Think of it this way then. Say you have to hit like 7 buttons at once to pull of a pretty crazy combo but you have a macro that helps you with that. Theirs no chance of human error unlike everyone who plays the game legit. I'm sure the Bannerlord Devs wouldn't Support people running macros in mp. Idk about anyone else but I don't want to play a game where tons of people use Macros and ruin others fun
You could still slip and hit the wrong macro. That would put you at a bigger disadvantage than just one button misclick.
Tyrilian 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:25 
引用自 Blind
引用自 Rose
Think of it this way then. Say you have to hit like 7 buttons at once to pull of a pretty crazy combo but you have a macro that helps you with that. Theirs no chance of human error unlike everyone who plays the game legit. I'm sure the Bannerlord Devs wouldn't Support people running macros in mp. Idk about anyone else but I don't want to play a game where tons of people use Macros and ruin others fun
You could still slip and hit the wrong macro. That would put you at a bigger disadvantage than just one button misclick.

If you fail at pressing a single button correct then HOW would you achieve a combo of multiple buttons with right timing for example. So yeah just makes a lot of things easier because you lack the skills. And with you I dont mean you sepcifically but in general ;-)
最后由 Tyrilian 编辑于; 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:26
Rose 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:26 
^^that
Wuh 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:27 
It would be a shame to see this thread get locked, but at the same time it probably needs to given how some people believe every macro in every single game is cheating when some games like wow and various other rts games use macros or similarities to macro's.

In wow using macro's increases the gap between yourself and a below average player. Keep in mind that the game was designed over the years with macro's in mind. The global cool down prevents stacking numerous things unless it's off the global cd (like trinkets for example and a very limited amount of abilities).

One example (which will be lost on most) is wow's mythic keystone dungeons. There are random npc buffs that they get based on level of keystone. One of them is called Necrotic and what it does is each time your tank in that key takes any form of melee damage by those npc's it puts a stacking healing debuff on them.

One of the classes in the game known as Paladins can use one of their immunity spells known as blessing of protection and remove said debuff one time every 5 minutes or so. Where the macro part comes in is on the tanks part. So what the blessing does is prevent all melee damage so it's an immunity, not a full one, but one nonetheless. That means when it is activated on your tank it will cause the mobs they're holding aggro on to shift their priorities to the next highest threat target after a very small window of time.

So your tank would make a simple macro and the line would read like this.

/cancelaura Blessing of Protection

What happens is when their healer or damage paladin/we would cast that on them to remove those stacks and allow healing to continue without kiting mobs, the difference between a skilled tank and a below average skilled one is in the use of this macro. The unskilled one will probably be shocked by an immunity being applied to them that will soon cause the mobs to go crazy and attempt to wipe the group as they fiddle with their mouse to drag it up to the buff corner and right click it off the buff in a sea of buffs. The skilled player that doesn't view all macros as cheating because they know the game is designed with their use in mind will press the keybind they made with that macro text and it will automatically remove that bop in the blink of an eye allowing them to maintain aggro and for their healer to be able to resume full healing on them for a short time further.

This is but one example in a game that is designed around their use, you most certainly don't have to use them, but you personally sabotage yourself by being stubborn and unable to learn simplistic things. Like the arguments for clickers back in the day when they claimed they could do anything just as good as somebody who fully keybinded their abilities. The clicker was simply in denial and the keybinders passed them up effortlessly.

--------------------------------------------

With rts games it's a bit different as you can hotkey up certain groups and buildings to swap between faster, enhancing your macro gameplay compared to someone who insists on dragging their mouse to each section of the map and buildings/units and scrolling over them or clicking them manually instead of using the provided hotkeys or group controls.

If a third party program does something you cannot do in the game itself without, then sure, it's probably cheating to some extent. I really wouldn't know with the mount and blade series as I have my multiplayer games I enjoy to play as my wall of text can confirm and the closest thing to their multiplayer I ever played was War of the roses a long time ago.

I play this game solely for the single player and I enjoy every second of it.
Blind 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:28 
引用自 Lachase
It would be a shame to see this thread get locked, but at the same time it probably needs to given how some people believe every macro in every single game is cheating when some games like wow and various other rts games use macros or similarities to macro's.

In wow using macro's increases the gap between yourself and a below average player. Keep in mind that the game was designed over the years with macro's in mind. The global cool down prevents stacking numerous things unless it's off the global cd (like trinkets for example and a very limited amount of abilities).

One example (which will be lost on most) is wow's mythic keystone dungeons. There are random npc buffs that they get based on level of keystone. One of them is called Necrotic and what it does is each time your tank in that key takes any form of melee damage by those npc's it puts a stacking healing debuff on them.

One of the classes in the game known as Paladins can use one of their immunity spells known as blessing of protection and remove said debuff one time every 5 minutes or so. Where the macro part comes in is on the tanks part. So what the blessing does is prevent all melee damage so it's an immunity, not a full one, but one nonetheless. That means when it is activated on your tank it will cause the mobs they're holding aggro on to shift their priorities to the next highest threat target after a very small window of time.

So your tank would make a simple macro and the line would read like this.

/cancelaura Blessing of Protection

What happens is when their healer or damage paladin/we would cast that on them to remove those stacks and allow healing to continue without kiting mobs, the difference between a skilled tank and a below average skilled one is in the use of this macro. The unskilled one will probably be shocked by an immunity being applied to them that will soon cause the mobs to go crazy and attempt to wipe the group as they fiddle with their mouse to drag it up to the buff corner and right click it off the buff in a sea of buffs. The skilled player that doesn't view all macros as cheating because they know the game is designed with their use in mind will press the keybind they made with that macro text and it will automatically remove that bop in the blink of an eye allowing them to maintain aggro and for their healer to be able to resume full healing on them for a short time further.

This is but one example in a game that is designed around their use, you most certainly don't have to use them, but you personally sabotage yourself by being stubborn and unable to learn simplistic things. Like the arguments for clickers back in the day when they claimed they could do anything just as good as somebody who fully keybinded their abilities. The clicker was simply in denial and the keybinders passed them up effortlessly.

--------------------------------------------

With rts games it's a bit different as you can hotkey up certain groups and buildings to swap between faster, enhancing your macro gameplay compared to someone who insists on dragging their mouse to each section of the map and buildings/units and scrolling over them or clicking them manually instead of using the provided hotkeys or group controls.

If a third party program does something you cannot do in the game itself without, then sure, it's probably cheating to some extent. I really wouldn't know with the mount and blade series as I have my multiplayer games I enjoy to play as my wall of text can confirm and the closest thing to their multiplayer I ever played was War of the roses a long time ago.

I play this game solely for the single player and I enjoy every second of it.
this
Goose 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:29 
Just because it's in one game doesn't mean it belongs in another.
Xav 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:29 
I'm just curious, what macros exactly are they using. Are they binding a movement key+ block to a button to simulate one button block? That doesn't seem THAT helpful... Unless they were doing something else to cheat like some kind of auto block script that only requires you to hold down the block button. That IS possible to do in multiplayer right now and them saying it's a macro could just be the person obfuscating their technique.

The arguments about cheating are kind of pointless. Cheating is whatever the devs say. Period. Doesn't matter what other games do, what the rules in other competitions are. If they say "Here we made this multiplayer mode, here are the rules" - then those are rules regardless of whether everyone agrees with those rules or not so just a matter of waiting on their input.
MnM Ondreyson 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:29 
引用自 Rykmentti
By the way, if there are any Bannerlord devs reading this, you better bring up official statement as soon as you can, because right now I'm enjoying this game. I've only seen about 7 people who were using macros and I just recently became sure, that there was something wrong. But if this becomes rampant, as in, most of the player base starts using macros and everyone else has to adapt to this, it's probably going to ruin the multiplayer for me.

But I would accept this. If you guys, the developers, tell us that using macros are allowed, I'm forced to learn how to use them and will probably learn how to use them and I will see how much I enjoy macro based multiplayer.

But if you guys decide to tell us that macros are NOT allowed. Then please do it as soon as you can, because well... It's just going to get worse the longer you delay this and you're going to have huge problem on your hands when part of your player base is using macros to competently play the multiplayer when you issue the ban for macros.

And afterwards if you could, bring down the wrath of god to macro users henceforth, because I truly do despise them. Forgive me people, but I truly cannot see any kind of argument that would justify using macros against people, who are not using macros, in a game where it's not natively supported.

And please... Developers. Don't stay silent about this, just do something about it.

I mean you don't have to have a solution ready right now, but please tell us that if it is allowed or not and if you guys decide that it's not allowed, please start working on a solution.


Ive actually noticed people doing picture perfect blocking and swinging, and impossible combos lately. I was actually even complaining about this on my stream yesterday during multiplayer, wondering if my admittedly average skill had actually gone down that badly in 2 days or whatnot.

Knowing Im not crazy is kind of nice, since it means those people that seemed impossibly perfect with their combat were most likely using macros.

I dont understand the couple people arguing that macros arent cheating. Theyre doing things that a human CANT do 100% of the time. Yes, a human can do it, but NOT 100% of the time without making a mistake. Eventually a human WILL mess up, and a macro wont. That makes it no longer human aka player skill, and therefor, a cheat.

This games multi is all about your own personal skill. Otherwise you shouldnt be playing the multiplayer. Keep macros out please.
Blind 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:34 
引用自 Xav
I'm just curious, what macros exactly are they using. Are they binding a movement key+ block to a button to simulate one button block? That doesn't seem THAT helpful... Unless they were doing something else to cheat like some kind of auto block script that only requires you to hold down the block button. That IS possible to do in multiplayer right now and them saying it's a macro could just be the person obfuscating their technique.

The arguments about cheating are kind of pointless. Cheating is whatever the devs say. Period. Doesn't matter what other games do, what the rules in other competitions are. If they say "Here we made this multiplayer mode, here are the rules" - then those are rules regardless of whether everyone agrees with those rules or not so just a matter of waiting on their input.

Right, I feel like if the macros were able to anticipate the incoming moves it would more justifiably be cheating, but you still need to make the choice and observe before making a decision in which direction to block.
Rose 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:40 
In Warband Competitive macros get you a disqualification.... cause it's stated as cheating.

引用自 Lachase
...Enjoy every second of it.
That's SP and WoW.... were talking about Bannerlord where your skill is what matters. Using a macro in MP in skill based games = Cheating. Or you'd be allowed to do it in competitions in Warband and soon to be Bannerlord.
最后由 Rose 编辑于; 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:40
Blind 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:41 
引用自 Rose
In Warband Competitive macros get you a disqualification.... cause it's stated as cheating.

引用自 Lachase
...Enjoy every second of it.
That's SP and WoW.... were talking about Bannerlord where your skill is what matters. Using a macro in MP in skill based games = Cheating. Or you'd be allowed to do it in competitions in Warband and soon to be Bannerlord.
So it was considered cheating in the competitive scene in warband? Someone said it wasn't earlier.
Lechuck's Beard 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:42 
I don’t think there will be a yes or no response from the developers. But I hope so. And I pray the answer is they macros are not to be used.

I was just Googling a little more on the subject and found some footage from Warband Esports. Would you believe that? I had no idea! Anyway...macros certainly wouldn’t be accepted there, would they? So why here? Granted, there’s no cash prize for us all, but still...
Rosh+ 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:44 
引用自 Lachase
-snip-
i understand where you are coming from in terms of mmorpgs where there are a ton of different abilities to use and different timings or ways to use them, as i have used them myself where it has been allowed, but in a reflex free camera fighting game like mordhau/chiv/jedi knight or bannerlord, true skill is percieved as a show of mechanical knowledge and reflex as opposed to pure knowledge of skill usage and positioning as your cut and dry mmorpg usually is based around competitively.

in bannerlord you are meant to look in a certain direction to block a certain way, this way you can't block in one direction while looking in another, this necessitates development of proper footwork in order to counteract being gang-banged by other players, with key binds you can just block one way and instantly block or attack with no additional input on your part, this puts other players at a disadvantage when they play the game the way it was meant to be played, that is the definition of cheating: using third party software to gain an unfair advantage over other players.

many would say that there are no rules dictating that you can't do this, but i would say there are already rules in place: the rules of the game. there is no input in the controls menu that lets you bind this manually without third party software, it was therefore unintended, and is clearly a breach of the rules set by the game itself.

in SWG everyone used macros to cut down on tedious ability use, cause there were a million different abilities all to do many different things, this is understandable, that is not cheating.

in TF2 several dozens of players used aim assists in multiplayer because they couldn't be arsed to aim with all the necessary inputs like everyone else. this is cheating.

in warband a few dozen people used macros in multiplayer because they couldn't be arsed to pick one of four directions to block in using all the necessary inputs like everyone else. this is cheating.

now, another argument could be made for macros, and that's for singleplayer use. i think macros are perfectly acceptable for singleplayer use, and you should be able to do whatever you want as long as you arent ruining somebody else's experience. keep on using macros in singleplayer, friendo.
Rose 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 10:45 
引用自 Blind
引用自 Rose
In Warband Competitive macros get you a disqualification.... cause it's stated as cheating.


That's SP and WoW.... were talking about Bannerlord where your skill is what matters. Using a macro in MP in skill based games = Cheating. Or you'd be allowed to do it in competitions in Warband and soon to be Bannerlord.
So it was considered cheating in the competitive scene in warband? Someone said it wasn't earlier.
Who said that? Lol
Nah fam that was 100% grounds for disqualification and black listing. Idk who that person did Competitive with.
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发帖日期: 2020 年 4 月 7 日 上午 4:54
回复数: 437