How to balance Raptors Super

[Crafekster]

Make that second Hit that he does after the twirl last as long as a bunt hit.

Currently, Raptors super is the most mechanical 50/50 thing in the game. You cannot hijack the ball during the super, so it works as a guard (long range guard too). He can change the balls directions torwards behind him. He can bunt the ball up or down for an extra free 2 meter bar which makes him easily do his super again. And he can hold the twirl down for longer to syke the opponent out yett again, also giving double ball speed i may add, where it is toughest to predict his super. Making him accidently useing his super still safe. Wheres every other character has to be toughtfull.

When Latch got Nerfed, they made it so it has to be clear which direction the player inputs for the ball to go. And the boombox actualy reads now when the ball will release.

Currently the bombox only reads the time of which the ball will be released on the second hit. Which is like, unreadable. You cannot use that small timespan of information to know when the ball releases. It is shorter than Switches switchflip.

Even the "How to be 80% immortal to Raptor" guide has no advice in that aspect.

So!

Either make Raptors second hit as long as it just hit a bunted ball, which also helps the rythm and sensability torwards simply hitting the ball when its bunted from the super.

Or, make the boombox read that he has done a short, or a long super (Nothing inbetween). If the player has triggered his super and held the button for X ammount of frames, the boombox will give the accurate time of which the ball will release (if the raptor will not bunt it).

Raptor is not a bad character, but his super shouldnt be relied on chance.

Then again, may be too late for any changes now.

Toughts?

[shftd]

no

[Crafekster]

Why not

[beans]

Yes.

[manual detonation]

There was information on how to counter raptors special, but it wouldnt stop all angles at all.
Maybe a small nerf. But i dont know what nerf, maybe just keep his " short version " or " long version " so he cant use your delay to send the ball into your face after your swing.
You might be able to cover 1 side how his special, but i havent tried yet.

[YotaXP]

I wouldn't mind if the number of angles stayed the same, or if he kept the option of how long to spin for, but not both. You only get two chances to catch the ball (button press and button release), but you need 3 or 4 to be able to cover all the options. Particularly when there is even the slightest ammount of lag.

[Crafekster]

I didnt say to add both, its "either"/"or".

Either make the second hit last as long as a bunt

OR, have the length of the super be short/long (no inbetweens) for the boombox to be able to tell when the ball wil release.

[Hamzawi]

well, i think his super makes up for the crappy angels..so if they change it or not...meh

[sh101]

I think the range that he can release his special needs to be smaller. Thats the main issue IMO. Not practical to 100% cover it unless you have a long smash like candyman or dice. Even then I don't think a raw smash should ever be the only safe way to cover something.

[PikaChad Cheesecake]

Would gladly trade a little of his super power for a killer aerial angle or something but as it stands now, his super is his main killing power.

I think he's fine where he's at though.

[Crafekster]

But... why? Hes not a bad character, and his super being his main killing is all relied on chance. What reason would you choose raptor for in such a high skill ceiling if hes normals are bad?

It is an oddball to the rest of the casts moveset when you discover that there is absolutely nothing you can do about the super but panic (rely on chance).

[PikaChad Cheesecake]

Except that it STILL can be dealt with. People need to get better at dealing with it is all.

Also his normals aren't fantastic or anything but they still are effective if you set up where they can't cover all three of them quickly.

[Ugraum🥪⏰Grableg]

are people still doing this stuff

1. it can be dealt with

2. There are a lot of factors involved before you can just say 'this special is pure chance' things like where raptor is standing, what speed the ball is at, where are you standing, you have to create an advantageous situation not just "press X for 50/50"

3. his special being good is part of where the character is at right now. some characters have potent neutral games and can pose an offensive threat without full meter, some characters have exemplary ball control to create better situations for themselves and keep opponents on their toes, some characters have better specials that rely on their ability to create space and generate ball speed and meter before mounting an offensive, some characters are dice. it's part of what we like to call "balancing a video game" and this one's not doing too bad at it. Saying "change raptor's special" is a fundamentally flawed argument, because you need to be looking at the character as a whole and then decide it is an aspect that needs tweaking. You are bringing up presumed issues with one aspect of his character and ignoring his subpar neutral angles, dependancy on point length, things that go into the bigger picture.
Look at it this way: If 100% of raptor's kills were his special, but he still got 50% less kills than switch, would his special still need changing? We're having the wrong conversation here.

4. everytime one of these flavor of the month "pure luck" balance complaints pops up i feel like someone has to roll up a newspaper and send out a general bop-on-the-nose reminder that in this game, or any fighting game, or any game period, the idea that if 2 players go head to head and both don't ♥♥♥♥ it up and do their flowchart responses that they won't lose is so flawed. outside of the general human response time and windows for error, let's say raptor's special had an easy remedial "hey just do ____ and you'll hit it guys" then how would 2 good players die?

the best raptor players bunt out more than launch anyway

I can't tell if reads/positioning/punishment/meter management/situational awareness don't exist in any other fighting game, or LL players just don't play any fighting games. It's one of the two.

[Crafekster]

Pull explained to me a few ways to survive raptors super, which helped greatly. But i cant see your argument as valid because of how you say that theres ways to look at the balance, but not giving any answers. And thats just raptors super. I play tons of fighting games and it is also why i questioned raptors super in comparison to the rest of the game as it seemed too good, even when used accidentaly. Raptors normal game isnt that bad, i dont know why people say raptor can only get kills in super. Theoretical thinking isnt how you play the game (specialy in LL).

My argument is that you cannot read the super in anyway. No boombox telling when the ball releases, no real timing to it. Especialy if used at seemingly random suprises. Resulting in a panic, which is when you rely everything on chance of catching the ball. Most of the times you will not be in a good position versus raptors super, so you cannot position or ready yourself as anytime before you can ready yourself, youl have to jump into trying to catch the ball however you can and letting chance give the results.

The problem is how the super with the things said above, is what gets kills for the character.

Edit: Also no one takes into account charge attacks.

[sh101]

Balance doesn't necessarily mean good design. Rock paper scissors is a perfectly balanced game, but I definitely don't enjoy it as a competitive game. I personally don't enjoy games of chance and I don't think random chance should be a main deciding factor in the results of a match.

I don't agree with the argument "other fighting games do it so LL should too". LL is a lot different from every other fighting game and shouldn't have to follow the same design rules. I've always felt that LL should be a game about who can play perfectly the longest. IMO LL is most interesting when two players are covering and reacting to eachother perfectly and you get insane bursts that go to 100k+ speeds. That doesn't really happen much when every 5 seconds you flip a coin to see if you randomly die or not. LL should be a game about reacting to your opponent, not guessing what they are going to do. And I'm not saying that I want easy guarenteed ways to cover every move in the game. Obviously better players put out bigger threats that are harder to react to and deal with. Its not like people are going to suddenly reach a skill ceiling and every set will end with a timeout on the first burst.

For the most part LL already is a game about reacting. All moves in the game have optimal ways of covering and dealing with them except a couple. The main ones being raptors special, candymans special, switches special, latches grounded neutral, and switches neutral.

Prediction is still a big part of the game though. Like if you want to risk getting parried trying to predict and punish an unsafe bunt, thats your own choice. Its their fault for doing an unsafe bunt in the first place. When those kinds of predictions are forced on you, thats when I think its a problem.

As far as Raptor's special, lets just take a look at the facts/frame data.

- Fastest human reaction time that you can expect most people to do consistently is about 250ms, or 15 frames.

- Bunts have 17 active hitbox frames, and 8 frames of recovery

- Neutrals have 20 active frames, with 10 frames recovery

- Latch's and Switch's smash attacks have 18 active frames, Sonata and Raptor have 20 active frames, Candyman and Dice have 23 active frames, all smashes have 11 recovery frames.

- Raptors special can release on frame 30 at the earliest, and frame 48 at the latest. This means there are 19 frames where the ball can potentailly become active.

So what does this mean?

- You can not use a bunt, Latch's smash, or Switch's smash to get 100% coverage over raptors special. You are either going to miss the first couple release frames or the last release frames.

- You can use neutrals, Sonata's smash, or Raptor's smash to get 100% coverage on raptors special, but has a 2 frame timing window.

- You can use Dice's smash or Candyman's smash to get 100% coverage within a 5 frame window.

Now the other case you have to look at is when raptor activates his special near the end of hitstun. You have to have a hitbox out to cover the normal hitpause release because raptor could just not activate his special. Ideally you would want to use a bunt to cover this because it has the least recovery frames. So lets look at the following scenario:

- Raptor is in raw smash hitpause with full meter.

- I am frame perfect and will activate my bunt 16 frames before the normal end of hitpause so that I only use 1 active hitbox frame to cover the raw smash and have the minimum amount of recovery frames.

Frame [-26] Raptor starts his special here

Frame [-16] I start my bunt to cover the raw smash.

Frame [-11] 15 frames after raptor starts his special (human reaction time) I am now aware that raptor has activated his special

Frame [00] Smash hitpause would end and ball would start moving if raptor didn't activate his special, last active frame of bunt

Frame [+6] Raptor's special ends here. I am still in bunt recovery frames so i die.

Frame [+9] Bunt recovery would end if i was not dead.

Of course this is just one example and this could happen 100 ways with slightly different timings.

It seems to me that there are two options for dealing with raptors special.

A) Direct intercept

If they wait till the end of hitpause, you first need to guess when/if they will activate and try to cover the raw hitstun without dying during recovery frames. After that, you can go for a guess with a bunt, or try to go for full coverage with a neutral attack or smash attack if its even viable for your character.

B) Safezone

Position yourself in a safezone where no angle can hit you, and try to react and recover after release. This option becomes less viable depending on raptors position and as speed increases.

[Antifate]

Is the 50/50 here just if Raptor uses the long/short versions of his super at maximum ball speed at a non-moving target in a bad position who does not want to smash or use neutrals?