This game is a ridiculous trial and error collection

[Zaxx]

Let me start by saying that I'm a huge fan of all the Commandos games, played them a lot when I was a kid, completed all of them but Desperados... Why do people say that this game is better than Commandos while it clearly isn't?

Commandos was hard but fair, it was not this random ♥♥♥♥ of trial and error. Commandos was completeable without save scumming while this game? Half the time I'm not sure what is going to happen here so the quick save button is my best friend: the aiming with the guns is random, the enemy AI is random, the ♥♥♥♥ing guns and the knife have random damage etc. I mean seriously, in a ♥♥♥♥ing stealth game it can occur that I don't kill a guard by throwing a knife into him from 2 meters away? What the hell? Some guards can even see differently than the view cone would indicate. There's also no indication as to how far a guard can hear... why? I honestly don't understand, this game is unfair and infuriatingly frustrating at times.

It's a shame because honestly it could have been a better game than Commandos is but nope because someone forgot to polish up the game mechanics (and for God's sake those bugs, in mission 11 there is a birdge you can't cross while crouched - the problem is that even if you walk the guards will hear you and it's game over). I guess I'll suffer through it because I like the graphics and the atmosphere but it's not a pleasant experience at all.

PS: ♥♥♥♥ Nordic for not updating the game at all, I shouldn't have to mess around with the game files for an hour just to get it running and to up the resolution to 720p (the mouse still has a horrible looking trail in the menus, dunno how to get rid of that one). That's the publisher's responsibility yet what kind of "update" did this game get? They switched the original Infogrames logo video to a new one that says Nordic, that's what I call a ♥♥♥♥ing compatibility patch! ♥♥♥♥ing jokers.

[Zaxx]

Mission 13: I give up, this is just too frustrating. Horrible ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game, almost nothing works as it should (and everything happens slooooooooooooooooowly), the game mechanics are downright broken. No wonder Spellbound went under.

There's only one thing I don't understand: the good reviews at the time. Has any reviewer even completed half of this game? The first few levels are charming but then the flaws start coming out more and more to the point where the whole thing becomes a barely playable mess.

Let's take the supposedly 3D environment that would let you take advantage of the height differences. The idea is great, hell, it's even more realistic than what you have in Commandos... but the developers just forgot to program it 75% of the time. You're crouched behind a small wall? Doesn't matter if it's not programmed to make you hidden, guards will just spot you even on a night mission.

To make things worse the game is just full of great ideas that simply doesn't work as they should. It was awesome to see that Sam can take control of gatling guns... then I got the chance to use one in mission 9 to find out that it's absolutely useless.

Dynamite? Have fun spending half a minute with getting it to the right position with the trajectory display before you throw it instead of you know, having it work in the obvious way (you click on a spot that's in range, you throw it there and it explodes but nope, that would have been too "casual" I guess, too logical for a game like this).

Sleeping gas? Again the idea is great but the Doc can't throw it above a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wall. The first time I managed to make myself go to sleep instead of an enemy I laughed by the 5th time I was furious. The worst part of this is that it just makes reactive gameplay non-functional, you can't just lure a group of enemies to a corner and throw some sleeping gas at them because it's just too slow and the trajectory is too random (sometimes you can throw it well enough, sometimes you can't and the 2D graphics makes it hard to judge without waiting for the trajectory to be displayed - why isn't that instant btw?). Also it's sleeping gas you know: a guard shouldn't just kick a gassed collegue out of it, it's a chemical substance that makes you sleep.

The 2D graphics btw? They get in the way too much. You know why Commandos very rarely made you do things outside of your field of view? Because that's bad game design. I shouldn't do stuff blindly, ever.

The worst thing however? This game simply doesn't let you make even the smallest mistakes which is again horrendous game design. I should be able to make a mistake and correct it by reacting accordingly (you know, like in Commandos) but here? Nope, you make a mistake, get shot in the face and it's time to reaload.

Horrendous, just horrendous.

[palyarmerc]

Hey guys it's an old game and most of us are veteran Commandos players here too.

It runs perfectly in Windows 10 and stll looks as gorgeous today as it did then. You do have to use the community tweaks to get it running, but what the heck it's worth it.

Commandos wasn't without its faults either. Getting X amount of guards to target the Driver whilst Tiny knocked them down like skittles. As for the randomness of the AI, well that was one of the best features. No two characters behaved the same. Like the guy that won't go inside the building that Sanchez is throwing them out of instead he just kicks his buddies back to life, makes the game much harder than Commandos at times.
yeah there were limitations what game doesn't have them. So Nordic owns the copyright and it's not abandonware. Why? Maybe because it's still worth playing.

Highly detailed environments, great voice acting and storyline, a myriad of character abilities and surprising AI interactions.... it's a real gem.
Use DxWnd, and the ddraw.dll and WindowsXP(SP2) compatability settings and take another look, it really is worth the effort.

[Zaxx]

Originally posted by palyarmerc:

Hey guys it's an old game and most of us are veteran Commandos players here too.

It runs perfectly in Windows 10 and stll looks as gorgeous today as it did then. You do have to use the community tweaks to get it running, but what the heck it's worth it.

Commandos wasn't without its faults either. Getting X amount of guards to target the Driver whilst Tiny knocked them down like skittles. As for the randomness of the AI, well that was one of the best features. No two characters behaved the same. Like the guy that won't go inside the building that Sanchez is throwing them out of instead he just kicks his buddies back to life, makes the game much harder than Commandos at times.
yeah there were limitations what game doesn't have them. So Nordic owns the copyright and it's not abandonware. Why? Maybe because it's still worth playing.

Highly detailed environments, great voice acting and storyline, a myriad of character abilities and surprising AI interactions.... it's a real gem.
Use DxWnd, and the ddraw.dll and WindowsXP(SP2) compatability settings and take another look, it really is worth the effort.

I'm at mission 23 now so I'll stick around till the end. After "giving up" I read that after completing mission 13 you get a new gang member so I went back to playing it out of curiosity... and well, Sanchez kinda saved the game for me, in fact he made it a joy to play.

It seems like a very big mistake he was introduced so late, he's exactly the kind of one man army character I missed from a game like this. Sure, he kinda messes up the character and gameplay balance (if you have a problem you go to Sanchez, the rest of the team is just a bunch of jokers compared to him) but damn he makes Desperados too awesome to care about such things. He's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ tank, the BJ Blazkowicz of tactical games. :D

Even the levels of the second half feel much better. Robbing a bank? Manuevering out of a warzone by playing the two opposing sides against each other? Clearing out a mine built into a mountain full of baddies with a gatling gun? Having a classic shootout at a train station? Great stuff all over the place with original ideas.

Two things frustrate me the most when it comes to the gameplay:

- Everything feels slow, especially how slowly the UI reacts if you want to do something.
- Too much room for trial and error because the game is very hard to read: lots of enemy types that behave differently, sometimes you can't exactly see or feel the height differences in the environment etc. The game is beautiful but lots of times the high attention to detail has its price because important parts of the environment get obscured while non-significant parts seem significant (for example small height differences in the environment that only look like they'd provide cover from the enemy line of sight while in reality they don't).

Sure, Commandos had these problems here and there but they were not as frequent as they are in Desperados. The 2D environment made line of sight very easy to read, you could clearly distinguish the 3 enemy types from each other and the enemy's limited hearing made the game very much about planning rather than trial and error. In Desperados you can plan ahead, hell, the game even wants you to do that frequently but half the time you're not able to execute your plans or have to rethink everything halfway through a mission because some ♥♥♥♥ in the environment doesn't work as it should by the game's rules.

In mission 9 for example I had a very clear route planned: attack the left side of the canyon to get the supplies, then cross the bridge and capture the gatling gun. Then I realized you can't cross the bridge while being crouched because the right end of it is bugged: if you stand up and start walking the guards will hear you because you're walking on wood and you're ♥♥♥♥♥♥. So instead of my well-planned and so far well executed plan I had to rely on trial and error with throwing some dynamite and shooting... then I realized that all my effort were in vain because the gatling gun is totally useless when it's manned by Sam: you're totally out in the open so once you start shooting you're dead. Stuff like this annoys me because the map was clearly designed with these tactics being viable.

Honestly I'd love to see an HD remaster of this game with a few things added, namely:

- hearing indicators
- an in-game "hintbook" or manual (Commandos had one) with detailed info on all of your abilities and enemy behaviours
- a totally reworked UI with instantly readable information and a hotkey display
- environmental and AI bug fixes
- an expanded "quick action" feature that is easier to execute by using hotkeys and one that you could store action sequences in it (for example shooting and fleeing to a nearby building instantly, would be super useful for Mia for example)
- a better map with points of interest shown
- pikcup highlighting on the terrain
- the ability to give commands while the game is paused

Now these are the things that should be implemented.

[palyarmerc]

Agreed, seems the demographic prefer turn based games when I go looking for similar.

I played Robin Hood after this, back in the day, but found it lacked the stealth. Later I read people saying how tactical it was. Might need to take a look again, but the background of WW2 and the Wild West are hard to beat.

I agree too that the game really forces you to make a mistake to see if something works and I understand lovers of roguelike games hate the save scumming, but that really is part of the deal with this game.

The new Jagged Alliance allows for pause and manouver, but yet, it still lacks the fluid RTS of Commandos and Desperados, besides, I don't want to spend ages setting up a strategy, I like that the AI are alive and moving regardless of my actions. Despite the frustration.

Sadly we'll not see the like of this again anytime soon. I love it regardless of it's flaws. I'm sure the developers at the time wished they could have done more too, but then again I still can never understand why games have to "evolve" (3D first person polygon nonsense) More levels in this format, released annually and without any "improvements" would have made me a very happy gamer.

[Zaxx]

Originally posted by palyarmerc:

Sadly we'll not see the like of this again anytime soon.

I highly doubt that Nordic bought the IP from Atari just to re-release the old titles and I think that a sequel would make sense at this point: the technology is there to improve these kinds of games, you no longer have to optimize stuff to 20 fps and 3D graphics now can serve as a great substitute for isometric 3D.

I agree too that the game really forces you to make a mistake to see if something works

Not only that, the game's mechanics literally promote save scumming and save scumming is bad - the genre doesn't really matter, frequently saving and loading just brakes the flow of the experience. Especially the shooting mechanics could have used some fine tuning because there are things I really like:

- Reloading
- Every character has a gun that works differently
- The Doc's sniper rifle takes time to aim which is great in simulating aiming through a scope
- The "roll and shoot" mechanic is really cool, too bad you can only use it very rarely.

... but there are things I hate:

- Shooting becomes random from mid range when it comes to damage and accuracy: it's a complete gamble and there is no character in the roster who shoots well at a long distance (Cooper should be a quick draw shooter who has perfect aim at mid and close range while the Doc should be more effective from a distance even without a scope). I really think that this has no place in a real-time stealth / tactical game. In Commandos you knew that every soldier needed 3 shots from the pistol to die and this made calculating shootouts very straight forward + the pistol's range was short but every shot in that range was a guaranteed hit.

Desperados is more realistic and I'm a fan of that approach but I think that when it comes to accuracy it's a bit too much: it's great to have a long range where your accuracy drops to 50% for example if you want to be a bit realistic but a badass cowboy like Cooper should hit his mid range shots 100%. This is how it should be for all characters: have a very clearly indicated - again: a better UI would be awesome - range where the hit chance is 100% and vary that for the different guns. The damage should be fixed too.

- I'm not a fan of the mouse aiming, it's just weird and hard because the guards don't have enough transition animations so they appear to be "too quick" to catch with the mouse pointer. I'd prefer a system where you only have to control your soldier's field of view with the mouse and you automatically aim and shoot the guard that is closest to you when clicking.

- The guards notice you and start firing almost instantly, there is no "Halt!" (a split second period that let's you react quickly) and if there is one because you get noticed while doing nothing you can't really do anything to get out of the situation. I also miss the option that Commandos had on the soldier behaviour to enemy halt: you could choose to stop or to be indifferent while in Desperados your guys are always indifferent (your guy just does what you told him to and doesn't stop) - this again forces you to load your save because guards just shoot you down before you could use another gang member to save your spotted guy's ass.

[leofy]

it's a wonderful game, not a math work

[palyarmerc]

Sorry Zaxx, but I have to totally disagree with almost everything you said.

On closer inspection, the randomness of the AI allows for the possibilty that they will not shoot you on sight, and that with careful back-up strategy (having Kate in the wings) you can knock out an enemy that is targeting your player.
Note: your characters will not auto-halt like in Commandos, but if you stay still you have the chance to set a quick action to floor the enemy soon as he's close enough with a 50% chance of success, and save scumming (I know, I know) is necessary for the outcome you desire.

Again, it's an old game. This isn't early access, so you cannot expect anything to be altered to fit with your dream game ideas. I for one have given up on the notion that my voice will be heard where my dream game is concerned. I feel your hurt though, it does suck.

You continue to overlook Commandos' flaws, which were equally plenty. What? only one member of the team knows how to drive? Seriously? It was a feature though, not a flaw.

As for Nordic, they've just added it to their Library since the license was up for grabs, or they were connected to an original author or something, it's otherwise abandonware.

I stopped playing PC games in the early days of polygon graphics 1999-2004,
I played Madden 97 and loved it, but I can't stand the broken vectors of polygon graphics, I'll forever be a sprite man, and I'm convinced it was an area not fully improved on. Ironic then, that kids today loved Minecraft, but those voxels "pixellated polygons" or whatever are a real eyesore to me. I'm using the word "hate" here, about Voxels - polygon vector graphics even if it does look better these days, will never have the charm of pixels. Not with this type of game anyway. It's one of the charms of Commandos BEL & BTCOD and of Desperados WDOA.

Anyway. It's just a game. A very good one at that. What's the chances you're going to give this game a thumbs up? for what it is...? How else are we ever going to see more of the same if the game makers don't see a positive market?