for the developers, some critical advice

[asapa]

Hello, first off, great game.

Unfortunately you seem to have made the mistake of confusing "skill" and "difficulty" with "annoyance factors / mechanics".

Developing mechanics to spite / grief / annoy the player != difficulty or challenge. Thumper is a good example of this, especially early game. If you want to get the most out of your Thumper placement(especially early game) it requires massive amounts of micro management and at times simply, pure luck.

Having goo spawn in the non-thumped zones based on total units and movement, then said goo makes a direct route to your main base instead of your troops near by = an annoyance mechanic, not a difficulty or skill mechanic.

If you want people to keep playing your game, you want to eliminate fake difficulty things such as the annoyance mechanics listed in my post, or alter them to make them an actual mechanic that can be dealt with.

[LonePie]

You're not incentivized to step in non-suppressed areas they can burrow to until you got units that can handle being surrounded or stealth commandos.

Also, If you're trying to get the most out of your thumpers by placing them in non-suppressed areas then I think you're just playing too aggressive, place them in safe ares or just outside where you can handle the burrowing goo. It'll tick off your OCD with thumper suppression zones overlapping but it's more safe- I know it did with me LOL.

I don't think it's an annoyance mechanic, more a constraint with trade-offs between going to non-suppressed areas and spawning more goo to get boxes and destroy buildings or staying in the safety of your thumpers and expanding slowly.

Overall I'd just suggest playing more slowly and less agressively expanding into non-suppressed areas.

[asapa]

Originally posted by LonePie:

You're not incentivized to step in non-suppressed areas they can burrow to until you got units that can handle being surrounded or stealth commandos.

Also, If you're trying to get the most out of your thumpers by placing them in non-suppressed areas then I think you're just playing too aggressive, place them in safe ares or just outside where you can handle the burrowing goo. It'll tick off your OCD with thumper suppression zones overlapping but it's more safe- I know it did with me LOL.

I don't think it's an annoyance mechanic, more a constraint with trade-offs between going to non-suppressed areas and spawning more goo to get boxes and destroy buildings or staying in the safety of your thumpers and expanding slowly.

Overall I'd just suggest playing more slowly and less agressively expanding into non-suppressed areas.

First of all, I don't need your suggestions, as I am with out a doubt better at this type of game than you are. Also no man, you're not even understanding the concept of what im talking about. It is 100% an annoyance mechanic, and it is 100% false difficulty when you create things like this. Also you mention boxes on the map, which are next to useless in actual game play. You strike me as the kind of player who can't get past more than 2,000 cycles of endless on top difficulty.

Playing aggressive is actually how you play games like these, especially on higher difficulties. Getting an efficient thumper out right now isn't "difficult" even early game with your initial starting squad. It is however, extremely annoying and I've straight up reset games within the first 5 minutes because of how this annoyance mechanic can occur with stray spawns running straight for your base. Doesn't matter if you position your troops along the actual building path, because any amount of movement from builders or troops will spawn Goo far outside of where your troops are, and instead of going to your troops(which are closer than your base), the Goo goes straight for your base. This is 100% an annoyance mechanic, and will piss off your player basis after sufficient game time has been achieved.

There needs to be an emphasis on actual mechanics, such as resource management(it is rather lack luster currently, very low brain thought processes), tactical building and positioning around choke points, tactical squad choices vs. enemy types(need more emphasis on this). These are just some basic examples of an actual mechanic, one that isn't an annoyance factor, one that won't piss on the player basis game after game.


Annoyance mechanics are not enjoyable for long term playing. You will see negative reviews after users have a decent amount of play time and the new "wow" factor of the game is gone because of this. Negative reviews = less budget to develop the game.

Just make a game with out annoyance mechanics, no one likes them in this type of game, it is not needed TBH. This is not some platformer co-op griefing party game, we do not need annoyance mechanics. Get rid of them, and focus on real game play for this type of game.

[Cat With Wifi]

Bro really pulled the "im better card" go play a comp game silly.

[LonePie]

Just LOL

[LonePie]

I tried your way of playing- aggressively expanding into burrowing goo.
Guess what?
I did it without annoyances.
Infected melee units in the beginning and commandos later can defend a thumper in non-suppressed areas easily.
Trade-offs and decisions, not a silly 'annoyance' mechanic that casuals always call it.
Plz go play an easier game

[asapa]

Originally posted by LonePie:

I tried your way of playing- aggressively expanding into burrowing goo.
Guess what?
I did it without annoyances.
Infected melee units in the beginning and commandos later can defend a thumper in non-suppressed areas easily.
Trade-offs and decisions, not a silly 'annoyance' mechanic that casuals always call it.
Plz go play an easier game

You're clueless to the point of this discussion, move along troll. Let me know when you actually know how to play games like this.

Cycle 5 or before = early game thumpers, you do not have commandos by cycle 5, so whatever you think did "early game" with thumpers is non-sense, and you're not even comprehending the post to begin with.

I feel like your idea of playing "aggressive" might be more along the lines of, 90 year old grandma playing video games.

[LonePie]

"Infected melee units in the beginning and commandos later"
Plz read go cry and refund m8

[Candyman2000]

Originally posted by asapa:

Originally posted by LonePie:

You're not incentivized to step in non-suppressed areas they can burrow to until you got units that can handle being surrounded or stealth commandos.

Also, If you're trying to get the most out of your thumpers by placing them in non-suppressed areas then I think you're just playing too aggressive, place them in safe ares or just outside where you can handle the burrowing goo. It'll tick off your OCD with thumper suppression zones overlapping but it's more safe- I know it did with me LOL.

I don't think it's an annoyance mechanic, more a constraint with trade-offs between going to non-suppressed areas and spawning more goo to get boxes and destroy buildings or staying in the safety of your thumpers and expanding slowly.

Overall I'd just suggest playing more slowly and less agressively expanding into non-suppressed areas.

First of all, I don't need your suggestions, as I am with out a doubt better at this type of game than you are. Also no man, you're not even understanding the concept of what im talking about. It is 100% an annoyance mechanic, and it is 100% false difficulty when you create things like this. Also you mention boxes on the map, which are next to useless in actual game play. You strike me as the kind of player who can't get past more than 2,000 cycles of endless on top difficulty.

Playing aggressive is actually how you play games like these, especially on higher difficulties. Getting an efficient thumper out right now isn't "difficult" even early game with your initial starting squad. It is however, extremely annoying and I've straight up reset games within the first 5 minutes because of how this annoyance mechanic can occur with stray spawns running straight for your base. Doesn't matter if you position your troops along the actual building path, because any amount of movement from builders or troops will spawn Goo far outside of where your troops are, and instead of going to your troops(which are closer than your base), the Goo goes straight for your base. This is 100% an annoyance mechanic, and will piss off your player basis after sufficient game time has been achieved.

There needs to be an emphasis on actual mechanics, such as resource management(it is rather lack luster currently, very low brain thought processes), tactical building and positioning around choke points, tactical squad choices vs. enemy types(need more emphasis on this). These are just some basic examples of an actual mechanic, one that isn't an annoyance factor, one that won't piss on the player basis game after game.


Annoyance mechanics are not enjoyable for long term playing. You will see negative reviews after users have a decent amount of play time and the new "wow" factor of the game is gone because of this. Negative reviews = less budget to develop the game.

Just make a game with out annoyance mechanics, no one likes them in this type of game, it is not needed TBH. This is not some platformer co-op griefing party game, we do not need annoyance mechanics. Get rid of them, and focus on real game play for this type of game.

yeah this is totally how you get people to listen to you.

[MillionMonkey]

I have actually been experimenting in 0.2 with a larger range check when units unburrow. To reduce the chance enemies see nothing nearby and default to attacking your base. This change was more to help newer players who accidentally cause a cascade of enemies to spawn. But if it enables a greater variety of ways to play then that's a bonus.

It's a bit of a tricky trade-off as the runners do help add some extra disincentive for operating in unthumped areas and they are counterable. Though the problem in all of these cases arises in the very early game when this is much harder.

Maybe something else will need to change to compensate for this. It'll probably come down to play testing when it moves to the beta branch.

[LonePie]

might be a user-messaging/intent thing to make it more clear that it's really hard to expand into non-suppressed areas at the start

there's no way in knowing how diff. people play the game

but players+devs do accommodate each other with the player adapting to the game's mechanics; and the devs do in showing what mechanics are super impactful to limit the frustration in blindly exploring and failing a bunch.

thanks for the active dev comms, it's great

[asapa]

Originally posted by Candyman2000:

Originally posted by asapa:

First of all, I don't need your suggestions, as I am with out a doubt better at this type of game than you are. Also no man, you're not even understanding the concept of what im talking about. It is 100% an annoyance mechanic, and it is 100% false difficulty when you create things like this. Also you mention boxes on the map, which are next to useless in actual game play. You strike me as the kind of player who can't get past more than 2,000 cycles of endless on top difficulty.

Playing aggressive is actually how you play games like these, especially on higher difficulties. Getting an efficient thumper out right now isn't "difficult" even early game with your initial starting squad. It is however, extremely annoying and I've straight up reset games within the first 5 minutes because of how this annoyance mechanic can occur with stray spawns running straight for your base. Doesn't matter if you position your troops along the actual building path, because any amount of movement from builders or troops will spawn Goo far outside of where your troops are, and instead of going to your troops(which are closer than your base), the Goo goes straight for your base. This is 100% an annoyance mechanic, and will piss off your player basis after sufficient game time has been achieved.

There needs to be an emphasis on actual mechanics, such as resource management(it is rather lack luster currently, very low brain thought processes), tactical building and positioning around choke points, tactical squad choices vs. enemy types(need more emphasis on this). These are just some basic examples of an actual mechanic, one that isn't an annoyance factor, one that won't piss on the player basis game after game.


Annoyance mechanics are not enjoyable for long term playing. You will see negative reviews after users have a decent amount of play time and the new "wow" factor of the game is gone because of this. Negative reviews = less budget to develop the game.

Just make a game with out annoyance mechanics, no one likes them in this type of game, it is not needed TBH. This is not some platformer co-op griefing party game, we do not need annoyance mechanics. Get rid of them, and focus on real game play for this type of game.

yeah this is totally how you get people to listen to you.

Yeah, I don't care if everyone listens to me, this isn't grade school buddy. You think I'm going to listen to what you typed? no, because it's non-sense.

[asapa]

Originally posted by MillionMonkey:

I have actually been experimenting in 0.2 with a larger range check when units unburrow. To reduce the chance enemies see nothing nearby and default to attacking your base. This change was more to help newer players who accidentally cause a cascade of enemies to spawn. But if it enables a greater variety of ways to play then that's a bonus.

It's a bit of a tricky trade-off as the runners do help add some extra disincentive for operating in unthumped areas and they are counterable. Though the problem in all of these cases arises in the very early game when this is much harder.

Maybe something else will need to change to compensate for this. It'll probably come down to play testing when it moves to the beta branch.

Thanks for making adjustments, annoyance mechanics aren't really great for this genre of game.

I think the idea of having borrowing Goo hidden inside the unthumped zones itself is fine, totally acceptable, lore friendly, counterable mechanic, and a solid idea. I do not think the RNG pester / annoyance spawns are acceptable, especially how they function currently.

If you want some extra disincentive for operating in unthumped areas, invent a mechanic that can be countered with out annoyance or RNG luck factors taking place. Maybe something along the lines of : Amount of time operating / movement inside unthumped zones = more spawns of goo on the next incoming waves. Maybe movement and operating on unthumped ground "awakens" some unique type of Goo monster on the next incoming wave.

These are really simple examples, yes I know, but I imagine you can grasp the concept and tie it into lore as well with relative ease.

You've created a great game, just think about long term whether or not certain mechanics are griefing your players vs actually being challenging. Eventually everyone will get to the point where they have played 50+ maps, and annoyance type mechanics are never enjoyable in game play at that point.

Focus and enhance the strong points of this genre and the game you created:

Unique units: Would like to see more variations to enhance even more play styles and approaches. This would also be beneficial in how players approach random map seeds. A lot of times in this type of genre, players will roll for specific map seeds. An alternative option would be to allow any map seed be viable for high level of play, based on more unit variations.

Tactical set ups: See above

Choke points / wave defense: enhanced via tile sets, or off set via tile sets(advantage for Goo).

Spaceship / Hero Units(Very solid design, love it. Anything that can be done to enhance this even more ++)

Unique Tile Sets(more conditional effects and more unique tile sets on world map)

Game play and mechanics should have an over-all emphasis on long term planning. What I mean by this is, you should start your map seed and have a general idea of where you want to be "end game" on the final waves, pretty early on in game. Reactive elements of game play should be kept to exploration and combat.

Anything related to the lore, you have a neat little sci-fi gem here. Keep it up.

[el Darkness]

You do not make an impression of a friendly guy to be fair. You should not look down on others, just because you think you have beaten more waves than someone else.

Originally posted by asapa:

If you want some extra disincentive for operating in unthumped areas, invent a mechanic that can be countered with out annoyance or RNG luck factors taking place. Maybe something along the lines of : Amount of time operating / movement inside unthumped zones = more spawns of goo on the next incoming waves. Maybe movement and operating on unthumped ground "awakens" some unique type of Goo monster on the next incoming wave.

Have you considered how new players would need to be informed about this? With the attention span of average player and lack of willingness to read/listen to information this is by no means an easy task these days.

Originally posted by asapa:

...Eventually everyone will get to the point where they have played 50+ maps, and annoyance type mechanics are never enjoyable in game play at that point.

I would be surprised to see more than 10% of players who bought this game to play this many matches to be fair.

Originally posted by asapa:

Focus and enhance the strong points of this genre and the game you created:

Unique units: Would like to see more variations to enhance even more play styles and approaches. This would also be beneficial in how players approach random map seeds. A lot of times in this type of genre, players will roll for specific map seeds. An alternative option would be to allow any map seed be viable for high level of play, based on more unit variations.

It is hard to disagree with first part, but as for introducing more units, well... more does not mean better unfortunately. There is a point where there will be too many units. But maybe if they would be locked behind particular Hero / alternate upgrade...

Originally posted by asapa:

Tactical set ups: See above

Choke points / wave defense: enhanced via tile sets, or off set via tile sets(advantage for Goo).

Spaceship / Hero Units(Very solid design, love it. Anything that can be done to enhance this even more ++)

More tactical options sounds good to me.

Originally posted by asapa:

Unique Tile Sets(more conditional effects and more unique tile sets on world map)

Game play and mechanics should have an over-all emphasis on long term planning. What I mean by this is, you should start your map seed and have a general idea of where you want to be "end game" on the final waves, pretty early on in game. Reactive elements of game play should be kept to exploration and combat.

Anything related to the lore, you have a neat little sci-fi gem here. Keep it up.

I agree that long term planning is one of most important parts of strategy game, but how exactly do you plan end game defense points if you do not know the layout of map? Need to explore the map makes it impossible to plan end game defenses if you do not know the map layout, resources locations and where the choke points are.

Also, try to be more understanding of others, this way a great conversation could begin.

[asapa]

Originally posted by el Darkness:

You do not make an impression of a friendly guy to be fair. You should not look down on others, just because you think you have beaten more waves than someone else.

Also, try to be more understanding of others, this way a great conversation could begin.

Look man, I'm not here to care about strangers feelings over the internet. I honestly don't care how I come across or whatever you feel between yourself and me, or whoever it is.

I'm here to talk about some critical thought regarding the development of an early access title, one which I think has a very solid base, and a development team that obviously cares about it's game. I would like to offer suggestions that, ultimately, could increase the positive reviews of their said game, and in turn, increase their sales and ability to produce the game during and after early access. If someone else has ideas that could benefit the game, they should be said.

I disagree about the statement regarding most players won't hit that number of maps in game play. This game is good enough to grab people who don't normally play this niche genre, and keep them interested. There is enough foundation here, and developers that clearly care about their concept, for this to become an excellent video game by any standards.

It just needs more awareness and advertisement in the RTS and general video gaming community. I'm surprised I even found out about this game, and I like this niche genre. I have been playing TD / wave defense maps since the days of matrix style defenses on starcraft 1.

I think focusing on eliminating annoyance mechanics that will upset your players eventually, is important to the long term playability of this game after it's official launch. Having really well thought out and developed mechanics(which this game already has in many areas, even in early access it excels past the norm) both enhances the enjoyable factors of a game, while increasing the challenge of it if the player so wants.

Thanks for your input regarding the conversation of mechanics in this game.

[asapa]

Originally posted by MillionMonkey:

I have actually been experimenting in 0.2 with a larger range check when units unburrow. To reduce the chance enemies see nothing nearby and default to attacking your base. This change was more to help newer players who accidentally cause a cascade of enemies to spawn. But if it enables a greater variety of ways to play then that's a bonus.

It's a bit of a tricky trade-off as the runners do help add some extra disincentive for operating in unthumped areas and they are counterable. Though the problem in all of these cases arises in the very early game when this is much harder.

Maybe something else will need to change to compensate for this. It'll probably come down to play testing when it moves to the beta branch.

Is there some kind of bug that causes spawning to happen on multiple areas of unthumped ground, even if no movement is present?

For example, just now in-game I alt f4'd and will not be returning to a save file because :

I have troops parked stationary on several sections of unthumped ground. No movement should be zero spawns. I then tried to place a thumper at one of the locations, which causes all of the unthumped locations to spawn out of control and was impossible to get under control at that point, total decimation of my base.

So just to clarify, multiple unthumped areas on map with units, drastically far apart distance wise, and movement on ONE of the areas caused out of control spawning on ALL of the areas where troops were, despite no movement from the other areas.





People WILL NOT play this game if there are annoyance mechanics like this that are RNG luck based essentially.