On Digital Leisure's Approach to Poker

[PlasticIcon]

I posted this in a question about variety of poker games - the developers demurred at my contention that they don't listen to players, apologized if I felt that the threads were not providing the right amount of feedback, and then - I am not making this up - locked the thread.

So, I'll reiterate and expand. Since I've defended the company and the game elsewhere, think of this as tough love. You have a serious credibility problem.

Poker, as it exists now, is a low-skill version of the game found no where else. Poker players have been absolutely unanimous - increase the stack sizes, so there's room for play. You don't have to do it universally, but giving people an option THAT EVERYONE WANTS, and that's simple to implement, should be an obvious solution.

There's never been an adequate reason why DL is so committed to Wheel of Poker - what they've done is extended the period before the blinds are actually larger than the stacks of the remaining players, and then responded with offense when it doesn't satisfy anyone.

Honestly, after maintaining interest in what the developers were planning about poker, THEY DO NOT. GIVE. A. ♥♥♥♥. The main difference in developers is whether they'll tell you what you want to hear, or just ignore you. After talking with Adam last night, he said changes were coming, but he really wasn't qualified to talk about Poker, so talk to Miguel. Miguel came by this morning, but he didn't feel like talking about poker is necessary, since DrunkenDonk and he already discussed it, and "Donk isn't happy". (That was news to Donk).

As another example, there are two players who openly collude. They've been reported, and I don't need to name names because it's not exactly a secret who I'm talking about. I think the developers genuinely don't understand what collusion is, and think it's some obscure part of poker culture that's frowned upon, like slow-rolling.

It is cheating. It is the only way possible to cheat short of hacking, and it's ignored.

They neither know nor care the slightest bit about poker, or poker players, whether they say they do or not. Saying you do is simple: "We care very much about the poker community on our site". See? I just did it.

We as a group have been promised a constructive discussion, and my attempt to even schedule a time in which to do so was literally ignored.

Now, when I said this in an earlier thread, just prior to locking it the Digital Leisure account responded:

Users asked for the game to be slower. We reviewed and implemented. Some were happy, others were not. We are listening.

I couldn't for the life of me ever remember anyone request the blinds be stretched out. But I searched the forum and found this, in a thread stating what everyone has made clear: the blinds are too high and they make the game trivial:

We sat down for a design meeting yesterday about the poker blinds, and we're going to lengthen the time that the blinds raise at.

You regard that as listening, and implementing. Most people would regard that as something very different. To be fair, ANY ameliorative action is an improvement, but representing the change as an example of complying with the community's requests only highlights that WE ARE NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY. [for reference, http://steamcommunity.com/app/260430/discussions/0/598199244891604305/]

Digital Leisure has alienated the poker community to such an extent that I doubt goodwill can ever be regained. I think I was one of the last holdouts - probably because I'm American, and when it comes to online poker, choices for us are beyond scarce.

tl;dr Poker, as it exists here, is dying.

[Donk]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Alex:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lamont:

I'd like to see the Fold button operative at all times, even if I have the option to check, I've lost count of the amount of hands I've been forced to check down and show from the BB when I'd rather have folded from the start. Maybe this can be implemented?

I agree. This is very useful when you're on a big blind with 3 9 off suited and the flop is let's say AK10 spades there is no point in involving in this at all, especially when there are other 4 players in it. I would fold without hesitation.

I also have done stuff like this. Especially if you're chip leader, you don't want to get involved in speculative junk hands, I'd rather have the option to pre-fold on my turn so I can pour another drink.

[Lamont]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von PlasticIcon:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Alex:

I agree. This is very useful when you're on a big blind with 3 9 off suited and the flop is let's say AK10 spades there is no point in involving in this at all, especially when there are other 4 players in it. I would fold without hesitation.

Why not check? It's a freeroll. And if you're the big blind everyone knows it's a force, so there's nothing to reveal. Seriously I think I've seen someone fold when he had the option of checking once, and he was dead drunk.

I'd still rather have the option to fold (muck) though, won't hurt anyone but me after all and can slightly speed the progress of the game up too. There are many times I'd rather be out of a hand than in it, regardless of whether I can be in for 'free' or not. aka larrythecrab.

[LordTaco]

Auto fold is standard at all poker sites. But not if your the big blind and have the option to check pre flop. Lamont stated he wanted to fold from the beginning, which is pre flop. AFTER the flop, EVERY POKER SITE HAS AN AUTO - CHECK/FOLD - button. But its a check/fold button, not a fold button. Most poker sites have a auto muck as well, but some sites, like party poker, you can see the players hole cards weather they muck or not - if they see the river bet/check - in the hand report in chat.

[Lamont]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LordTaco:

Auto fold is standard at all poker sites. But not if your the big blind and have the option to check pre flop. Lamont stated he wanted to fold from the beginning, which is pre flop. AFTER the flop, EVERY POKER SITE HAS AN AUTO - CHECK/FOLD - button. But its a check/fold button, not a fold button. Most poker sites have a auto muck as well, but some sites, like party poker, you can see the players hole cards weather they muck or not - if they see the river bet/check - in the hand report in chat.

And why shouldn't I be able to fold pre-flop even in the big blind? My blind is paid and if I want to fold without checking down, I've already paid to do that. Sure, most sites check/fold the BB, but as soon as anyone makes a raise, my cards will be mucked automatically anyhow.

And as Drunken Donk stated above, that extra few seconds can be very valuable to the player, even if it is just to have enough time to go to the fridge for another beer, without having to risk wasting the tables time waiting incase I am a little slow returning. :) I'd also like to see a Sit-Out function too, for the very same reason.

[Arcturus Asriv]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lamont:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von PlasticIcon:

Why not check? It's a freeroll. And if you're the big blind everyone knows it's a force, so there's nothing to reveal. Seriously I think I've seen someone fold when he had the option of checking once, and he was dead drunk.

I'd still rather have the option to fold (muck) though, won't hurt anyone but me after all and can slightly speed the progress of the game up too. There are many times I'd rather be out of a hand than in it, regardless of whether I can be in for 'free' or not. aka larrythecrab.

Of course, I can see how this could be abused.
If someone folded every hand, without even paying blinds, they could just wait it out until there's only one other player left, which would benefit them greatly as the odds would be better on having the better hand.

[Lamont]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Leonardo Myst:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lamont:

I'd still rather have the option to fold (muck) though, won't hurt anyone but me after all and can slightly speed the progress of the game up too. There are many times I'd rather be out of a hand than in it, regardless of whether I can be in for 'free' or not. aka larrythecrab.

Of course, I can see how this could be abused.
If someone folded every hand, without even paying blinds, they could just wait it out until there's only one other player left, which would benefit them greatly as the odds would be better on having the better hand.

That isn't an abuse as you call it though, it's a legitimate choice of playing style, in fact it's the exact opposite of being a 'calling station' another style of play, whilst not exactly smart is still valid.

[Arcturus Asriv]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lamont:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Leonardo Myst:

Of course, I can see how this could be abused.
If someone folded every hand, without even paying blinds, they could just wait it out until there's only one other player left, which would benefit them greatly as the odds would be better on having the better hand.

That isn't an abuse as you call it though, it's a legitimate choice of playing style, in fact it's the exact opposite of being a 'calling station' another style of play, whilst not exactly smart is still valid.

I'm not saying that it *is* abuse.

I'm just saying that I can see how it "could" be abused, and most likely it would be.
Not by us, of course. But there's these other players out there...

[LordTaco]

Ok best way I can explain this. No fold pre flop witout raise on big blind because we are playing poker. Its something nobody will do in a real game.

Its kind of like folding out of turn and can influence the hand. Lets say everyone folds except the player on the button and small blind who both call. After the flop comes the leading bet of the small blind may be influenced by the fact that there are 2 other players in the hand, as opposed to just 1 player left. If you made a foolish pre flop fold, you would have changed the hand. We shouldnt reinvent the game because you wnat more time to get cheetos.

[radio_babylon]

remember the cardinal rule, lord taco: dont tap the fish tank.

i think if people want to throw away their unraised blind, thats fantastic, and they should be allowed to under any circumstances. any player willing to voluntarily sacrifice their equity in the pot is A-OK with me... in fact, i encourage and welcome this behavior and hope i see lots and lots of it at any table im seated at.

[Arcturus Asriv]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LordTaco:

Ok best way I can explain this. No fold pre flop witout raise on big blind because we are playing poker. Its something nobody will do in a real game.

Its kind of like folding out of turn and can influence the hand. Lets say everyone folds except the player on the button and small blind who both call. After the flop comes the leading bet of the small blind may be influenced by the fact that there are 2 other players in the hand, as opposed to just 1 player left. If you made a foolish pre flop fold, you would have changed the hand. We shouldnt reinvent the game because you wnat more time to get cheetos.

Another example would be...

There's six players.
One player goes all in on a crap hand before flop (happens a lot!) and they somehow win the hand.
They now have a huge amount of chips.
That player then sits out the rest of the game by folding and not chipping in.
Other five players continue playing as normal.
Four players are eliminated, leaving the one that's been folding and not chipping and the one that knocked the other four from the table.
Folding player decides to play now.
It's a guarunteed second place and possible win for him/her.

[Lamont]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LordTaco:

Ok best way I can explain this. No fold pre flop witout raise on big blind because we are playing poker. Its something nobody will do in a real game.

Its kind of like folding out of turn and can influence the hand. Lets say everyone folds except the player on the button and small blind who both call. After the flop comes the leading bet of the small blind may be influenced by the fact that there are 2 other players in the hand, as opposed to just 1 player left. If you made a foolish pre flop fold, you would have changed the hand. We shouldnt reinvent the game because you wnat more time to get cheetos.

Nonsense, I do regularly in live games, just like a lot of other players.

[Lamont]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von radio_babylon:

remember the cardinal rule, lord taco: dont tap the fish tank.

i think if people want to throw away their unraised blind, thats fantastic, and they should be allowed to under any circumstances. any player willing to voluntarily sacrifice their equity in the pot is A-OK with me... in fact, i encourage and welcome this behavior and hope i see lots and lots of it at any table im seated at.

As do I.

[Lamont]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Leonardo Myst:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LordTaco:

Ok best way I can explain this. No fold pre flop witout raise on big blind because we are playing poker. Its something nobody will do in a real game.

Its kind of like folding out of turn and can influence the hand. Lets say everyone folds except the player on the button and small blind who both call. After the flop comes the leading bet of the small blind may be influenced by the fact that there are 2 other players in the hand, as opposed to just 1 player left. If you made a foolish pre flop fold, you would have changed the hand. We shouldnt reinvent the game because you wnat more time to get cheetos.

Another example would be...

There's six players.
One player goes all in on a crap hand before flop (happens a lot!) and they somehow win the hand.
They now have a huge amount of chips.
That player then sits out the rest of the game by folding and not chipping in.
Other five players continue playing as normal.
Four players are eliminated, leaving the one that's been folding and not chipping and the one that knocked the other four from the table.
Folding player decides to play now.
It's a guarunteed second place and possible win for him/her.

And is perfectly valid, you too could use the playstyle, if you can keep your hands off your chips.

[radio_babylon]

i suppose that is correct. if you lack either the discipline or ability to be able to take the best-case scenario in a tournament (a commanding chip-lead) and apply it towards guaranteeing a first-place finish, i guess you might very well want to do such a thing. and in the described scenario ("im an idiot and got insanely lucky, now what do i do?!?") the strategy really IS probably the best shot you have.

in which case, you deserve second-place money. arguably, not even that.

but, to all who also feel this is a smart strategy: thank you for being the engine of the poker economy.

as a corollary, to those who dont want to allow someone to do this, i say "if you cant beat an empty chair... who do you think you CAN beat?"

[LordTaco]

Ok Lamont, your just a lair. Show me ONE just one! - you-tube video of a tournament player, or anybody for that fact doing something this stupid. People do it all the time? ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥! Maybe at your weekly donkey game, but never in a casino. Your example is beyond stupid, not chipping in? Thats what the big and small blinds are there to do - force bets! Nor do you have to fold the big blind pre flop, to not play in the hands, you check and fold to a bet. PLAY POKER NOT SOME MADE UP GO FISH DONKEY CRAP. Lol it dosent matter anyway, the suggestion is so dumb that it will never get put in the game.