Vampire Generation

[Morte-360]

I've always being curious what generation your character belongs to in bloodlines? I always presumed it was somewhere between 8-12, Does anyone know?

[Smiling "Lucky" Lynx]

Originally posted by kthorazine:

Originally posted by Socrates:

I feel so utterly lost reading some of these comments. Are there novels involving this particular series? I've heard it was based off of a pen & paper game before but I have no clue as to how far it expands.

If there are novels; I might actually be inclined to read one. Seems like a well thought out universe.

It's based off of a very expansive PnP univiverse, there is a series of V:tM novels, but they are long out of print.

As for the generation of the character, I just prefer to accept that in the video game universe vampires power up way more quickly than the do in the PnP universe, because otherwise the character progression in the game would be impossibly slow and drawn out.

Ah. Maybe I'll look for a download of the books.

[Tosorov]

I am always amazed at how entertaining it canbe to just read the rule books for the Pen and Paper game. I always enjoyed them more than even reading the rule books for DnD even.

[scintillating luminescence]

Originally posted by wesp5:

Maybe I mixed this up somehow. But there is a connection between blood points and generation. Someone with more WoD knowledge please explain!

There is in fact such a relation, but it's inversely proportional and non-linear. 13th generation has a Blood Pool of 10. Each generation toward Caine gets an additional Blood Point, up through the 8th gen with a Blood Pool of 15. 7th gen has 20, and then every generation toward Caine gets +10 BP/gen, through 4th gen with a Blood Pool of 50. The Blood Pool of the 3rd gen is unknown.

There is no way the player is greater than 8th gen, max. I even have a hard time believing 8th gen, because no 7th gen vampire will be stupid enough to be caught the way the player's sire was caught - any vampire that stupid would have been diablerized quickly. For example, Beckett is 7th gen and Jack is 10th gen. But, sure, it's possible for the player to be 8th. No way would I believe they're any closer to Caine than 8th.

[__-__-__]

Originally posted by AJ:

Originally posted by wesp5:

Maybe I mixed this up somehow. But there is a connection between blood points and generation. Someone with more WoD knowledge please explain!

There is in fact such a relation, but it's inversely proportional and non-linear. 13th generation has a Blood Pool of 10. Each generation toward Caine gets an additional Blood Point, up through the 8th gen with a Blood Pool of 15. 7th gen has 20, and then every generation toward Caine gets +10 BP/gen, through 4th gen with a Blood Pool of 50. The Blood Pool of the 3rd gen is unknown.

There is no way the player is greater than 8th gen, max. I even have a hard time believing 8th gen, because no 7th gen vampire will be stupid enough to be caught the way the player's sire was caught - any vampire that stupid would have been diablerized quickly. For example, Beckett is 7th gen and Jack is 10th gen. But, sure, it's possible for the player to be 8th. No way would I believe they're any closer to Caine than 8th.

Does WoD have an explanation as to why the player character is so strong? Besides the obvious video game awesomeness that all player characters get? Are the player characters natuarally talented?

And further, what does generation actually govern? Is it just blood points? or is it the various powers? or is it all skills?

[scintillating luminescence]

I don't get the feeling that the player is particularly strong. Any other vampire, were they to "level up" their attributes, abilities, and disciplines, would be similarly strong. If anything, what makes the player strong is the accelerated rate at which experience is gained.

There is some talk that the blood of Caine can do funny things when it has thinned out. For example, some 14th and 15th generation "vampires" can do things like create new disciplines, despite the fact that in other ways they would hardly be vampiric.

Regarding what else generation covers, it is not just the size of the Blood Pool. cWoD restricts the number of Blood Points that a vampire can spend per turn, and this number increases with generation.

Additionally, the maximum value for stats is determined by generation; 8th gen and further from Caine have a max of 5, and every generation closer to Caine gets +1 to their max stat, up to the 3rd gen which has a maximum stat of 10. This is perhaps the most beneficial piece of having a low generation, because disciplines at levels 6 and above tend to be quite broken; for example, with Vicissitude 10, you practically cannot die, since you regenerate your flesh faster than you take damage. In fact, there is a hilarious little skit about what would happen if all the 3rd gen vampires got into a fight with each other...

https://web.duke.edu/DRAGO/humor/antes.html

EDIT: Whoops, forgot that there are other minor benefits to having a low generation. For example, you cannot Dominate a vampire who is closer to Caine than you are. I believe someone upthread mentioned how you will fail to Dominate Therese every time.

[Smiling "Lucky" Lynx]

I don't know why, but I've been reading this whole generation discussion. It's rather interesting. I'm guessing it kind of works like D&D? Never actually played anything like it (I played card games as a kid) but I've heard of it and how it functions.

[metafrost]

I am not sure about the second gen thing. The Progenators of the Clans are third generation and you are definately influenced by your clan blood. Your blood pool (points used for powers) would be way higher. Also the max trait rating of the character is 5. Although, he very well could be an 8th gen which is still pretty damn potent. Most modern age vamps that are out and about in the frontlines are 11th to 13th gen and you are easily more powerful than them. 8th gen in your position are not common.

[Houston810]

The PC is 8th generation based on this table from the the official 20th anniversary VTM book. Our PC character has attributes and skills that max out at 5 and a blood pool of 15bp. Any theory that the PC character is of a notably low generation is destroyed by the fact that the Prince is able to use "Dominate" on the PC and it is not possible to Dominate a vampire of a lower generation. And the idea that the PC is "abnormally strong" is silly.

Generation/ Max Trait Rating/ Blood Pool Max/ Blood Points/Turn
Third - 10/??/??
Fourth - 9/50/10
Fifth - 8/40/8
Sixth - 7/30/6
Seventh - 6/20/4
Eighth - 5/15/3
Ninth - 5/14/2
Tenth - 5/13/1
Eleventh - 5/12/1
Twelfth - 5/11/1
Thirteenth - 5/10/1

Max Trait Rating: This indicates the highest permanent Trait rating (excluding Humanity/Path ratings and Willpower ratings) a vampire of the given Generation can have. This is especially important with regard to Disciplines and Attributes.

Blood Pool Max: The maximum number of blood points a vampire may keep in her system. Remember that elder vampires concentrate their blood — while the volume of blood in their bodies is no greater than any other vampire’s, each pint of blood is worth more than one point.

Blood Points/Turn: This indicates how many blood points a vampire can spend in a single turn.

[Touch of Oblivion]

Don't forget how at the end when LaCroix is trying to Dominate you with "Give. Me. The key!" and you resist. I've always wondered whether that was meant to represent the PC's increased power by that stage of the game, LaCroix not having the concentration/will to use Dominate properly, or something else.

[Houston810]

Over the years I've wondered at that scene also. From what I understand you can't dominate a vampire of a lower generation but you can certainly fail to dominate a vampire of higher generation. So this scene represents a failure on the part of LaCroix to successfully dominate the PC. In book terms this could be explained by the PC having more confidence and willpower that he did in his/her first few nights after his/her embrace (I sometimes like to think LaCroix is freaking out in this scene but his rolls would be based on permanent stats).

[Touch of Oblivion]

@Houston810 I suppose LaCroix, from a pen and paper standpoint, could've been given negative to his Dominate rolls. Dominate requires willpower and concentration to use and at that time his world was practically crumbling around him. Couple that with the PC being determined to(most likely at this point) put an end to him or at least stop his plans...might be enough combined for some penalties on his rolls, causing him to fail.

[Houston810]

Maybe, I've never run a game, all I know about dominate is from the 20th anniversary VTM book:

System: The player rolls Manipulation + Intimidation (difficulty equals the target’s current Willpower points). More successes force the subject to act with greater vigor or for a longer duration (continue running for a number of turns, go off on a laughing jag, scream uncontrollably).

I personally do like the idea that LaCriox is falling apart and just can't hack-it in that scene coupled with the PC being more confident and determined. After all the PC just got through a blood hunt, killing Ming, killing the sheriff. He has to be super focused at this point haha

[Touch of Oblivion]

Pretty sure at that point the PC is like "You are a pathetic little ♥♥♥♥♥ compared to everything else I've killed lately. I can end you with a thought." and LaCroix's all "...but...but...neonate...just a neonate! WHYYYYYYYYYY!?" LaCroix's lived 200 years and as far as those 200 years have taught him, you being neonate means you should've been his(or someone's) pawn for at least the next several decades.

Instead, you destroyed what was likely a very old, very hard worked on plan in a short span of time and essentially get to choose the fate of a major city. Especially since killing the Sheriff means you killed the vampire the primogen were scared of, which means they're now scared of you. Except for maybe Strauss and Gary since they actually help you and might hope that earns them favor.

[VioletShadow]

I always assumed the PC's generation was lowered temporarily due to Gehenna's craziness or Caine's meddling possibly. No lower than 8th, no higher than 12.

[scintillating luminescence]

I think you are referring to the Withering? That's not really a lowering of generation. It was a Gehenna scenario where the Vitae of those close to Caine would lose its potency first, and then it would progress to those further from Caine. It could be marked by a temporary increase in power, but eventually Vitae would be spent but no Discipline effect would happen. The Withering would definitely ruin an Elder to the point that they couldn't dominate a Neonate, if it were happening...