what is the true purpose of Ankaran sarcophagus?

[G The Glamorous]

so, what is the TRUE purpose of it? it seems Messerach is just a normal corpse (could be a ghoul for queen Lamastu) rather than an Antediluvian, or at least that's how Jack treated him in the ending.
what bothered me is that when you investigated the sarcophagus on the Dane, it had been opened and there was a massacre. Jack probably had opened it to switch the corpse to the C4, but I doubt he would have anything to do with the massacre even though he is a powerful vampire.
I wonder if this has something do with the cab driver too, whether he is Cain or not... I'm sure we had enough debate. but it's possible that Messerach is actually an Antediluvian and the driver was there to diableried him, he could be Cain himself, consider the background between him and Lamastu is very similar to Cain and Lilith. is it possible that Cain has the ability to switch body and the driver was a new body for him?

[Meteor]

wesp5 eredeti hozzászólása:

Raveneye eredeti hozzászólása:

I had always assumed that the slaughter on the Ship was Caine's doing due to a need for blood after so long

The slaughter might have been the cabbie's doing, but the end we know little about him compared to the fact that we know Jack is ruthless ;).

the body is simply the remains of Caine, who has gone Nirvanna-like and walks the Earth as a shade now, possessing people whenever he feels the need to communicate

I don't think so. In the Gehenna novel Caine still has his original body and we never hear that he lost an eye. Also the head ornaments of the mummy fits better to Messarach.

Yes but Jack have been in Los Angeles fighting the anarch fight, he would have to have been gone a long time if he was on that ship. People would notice.

[Wesp5]

Morfium eredeti hozzászólása:

The game storyline also breaks with the gehenna novel in some ways. It's been quite some time since I read it, but didn't his arrival started the whole weakening of all elder vampires? And Jack... Well I don't wanna spoil the book.

Yeah, I didn't like the Gehenna novel either. I thought it didn't really fit well with the rest that I knew of the WoD and was just a cheap badly written cash in. Still I guess Caines is in the same cave in the Gehanna book, no?

The thing I never understood was, why would Caine do such a thing? Out of boredom?

The only thing I can think of it was some kind of test of his children. Take an icon that promised power to see if they would work together or fight each other. Observe how the elder vampires behave and compare it to a completely newbie like the player. See if your children are worth saving...

[Wesp5]

Based Dewrito eredeti hozzászólása:

Yes but Jack have been in Los Angeles fighting the anarch fight, he would have to have been gone a long time if he was on that ship. People would notice.

I think this would have been only an few hour long affair like when the player visits the Dane. Jack aquires a boat, drives out, kills everyone and returns to LA.

[dragonslayer91]

It's intentionally left too nebulous to be certain. but some guesses can be made.

What we know:
The dane was missing all crew.
The dane was carrying the sarcophagus
The sarcophagus was open when you arrived
It appeared to have been opened from within
The sarcophagus was supposed to contain Messerach

The sarcophagus eventually contained you know what, planted by jack.
Jack has an ancient corpse he refers to as Messerach next to him.

The obvious Conclusion:
Taking all evidence as direct (in a game about subterfuge and intrigue) the sarcophagus contained messerach *and* the driver who opened it from within and slaughtered the crew being hungry exiting torpor, tossing their bodies overboard or consuming them entirely. Then flew or swam off. Jack later intercepts the sarcophagus (where isnt really important but the musuem seems most likely, less security than the mansion and they key was there too).

The alternative conclusion:
An outside character (likely jack or the driver) intercepted the dane at sea, slaughtered the crew and disposed of them overboard to make it seem more spooky, opened the sarcophagus and rigged the scene to look as if it was opened from within to fuel the fire of superstition and desire, although this would also seem to indicate it was empty of its resident which leaves me both confused as to why the prince seems certain and why it would be staged this way. The driver is more enigmatic and seems a more likely cantidate as Jack doesn't seem the sort to wholesale slaughter people, even humans, to serve machinations although he is a clever planner. But either is possible, if it was jack it was likely in collaboration with the driver. he likely wouldnt have planted the surprise at this point due to difficulty in transport on the open ocean but also because of potential for it to be discovered during a museum investigation.

The alternate alternate:
The dane was carrying cargo, according to its manifest, that was completely unidentified. This could potentially have contained the driver, but it's nebulous.

What i like to think:
personally i like to think the driver(caine, its hinted too heavily for me to think otherwise) awoke aboard the dane in present form, i don't think the cab driver from the ending sequence and most of the game are supposed to be the same character or even the same body but according to old world of darkness rules caine just kinda does what he wants so possessing spirit is not impossible. Whether he was in the clandestine cargo or the sarcophagus with messerach is largely unimportant but i think he was in the sarcophagus. At some point jack and the driver meet, called together or otherwise, and have similar motives. The driver is filled in on current afairs from an anarch point of view if he was not already informed, develops a plan to both cover evidence of his arrival and potentially serve some other purpose (spark the endtimes? the OWOD end times were around when the game is set). He artificially advances the power of a chosen agent beyond the capability of their years to serve this end. All endings actually suit this end, whether lecroix opens the sarcophagus or not he's toast thanks to you, and the item itself remains either sealed, and vanished or a red-herring publically. Only the fate of the main character and, to a lesser extent, the political atmosphere are changed by the choice of sides.

[dragonslayer91]

oh short addendum:
Who was messerach?
Yeah ghoul-king seems most likely given the in-game evidence.

[G The Glamorous]

that's some interest theories I've ever seen in a while
about the massacre thing: whoever did it will lose a lot of humanity, Jack is poweful but the Beast would probably take over him, so I doubt Jack is the culprit for that

most endings can be consider as canon, but I wouldn't say that for the Kuei-Jing ending and Strauss ending. the plot is all about the Final Nights so these 2 endings seem to serve as an alternative ending.

[Wesp5]

dragonslayer91 eredeti hozzászólása:

The sarcophagus was open when you arrived

Wrong. It appeared to have been openend by some blood trails which gave the impression that whoever was inside returned into it afterwards.

The obvious Conclusion:
Taking all evidence as direct (in a game about subterfuge and intrigue) the sarcophagus contained messerach *and* the driver who opened it from within and slaughtered the crew being hungry exiting torpor, tossing their bodies overboard or consuming them entirely. Then flew or swam off. Jack later intercepts the sarcophagus (where isnt really important but the musuem seems most likely, less security than the mansion and they key was there too).

This is not at all obvious to me because it has several issues:
1. Why should there be two corpses in the sarcophagus? This makes no sense!
2. The blood trails look as if the owner returned but the cabbie is outside so it was a trick!
3. How should he flew or swam off? Why should he exit on the ship and not earlier or later?
4. Why should Jack intercept the sarcophagus later on which means two similar events?
5. You forgot that someone gave Johansen information on where to find the sarcophagus.

The obvious conclusion to me is that Jack and the cabbie, whoever he is, gave the info about the sarcophagus to Johansen because they knew he would have it shipped to LA. They intercepted the Dane, killed the crew, replaced Messerach with the C4 and staged the opening to make the prince and the other factions notice the sarcophagus. At the same time they stole the key and sold it to the Kuij-Yin to make sure there would be some trouble! Then they sat back and watched the story unfold :)...

i don't think the cab driver from the ending sequence and most of the game are supposed to be the same character or even the same body

According to the game files the cabbie is always the same guy and he is named Caine :)!

[Meteor]

wesp5 eredeti hozzászólása:

dragonslayer91 eredeti hozzászólása:

The sarcophagus was open when you arrived

Wrong. It appeared to have been openend by some blood trails which gave the impression that whoever was inside returned into it afterwards.

The obvious Conclusion:
Taking all evidence as direct (in a game about subterfuge and intrigue) the sarcophagus contained messerach *and* the driver who opened it from within and slaughtered the crew being hungry exiting torpor, tossing their bodies overboard or consuming them entirely. Then flew or swam off. Jack later intercepts the sarcophagus (where isnt really important but the musuem seems most likely, less security than the mansion and they key was there too).

This is not at all obvious to me because it has several issues:
1. Why should there be two corpses in the sarcophagus? This makes no sense!
2. The blood trails look as if the owner returned but the cabbie is outside so it was a trick!
3. How should he flew or swam off? Why should he exit on the ship and not earlier or later?
4. Why should Jack intercept the sarcophagus later on which means two similar events?
5. You forgot that someone gave Johansen information on where to find the sarcophagus.

The obvious conclusion to me is that Jack and the cabbie, whoever he is, gave the info about the sarcophagus to Johansen because they knew he would have it shipped to LA. They intercepted the Dane, killed the crew, replaced Messerach with the C4 and staged the opening to make the prince and the other factions notice the sarcophagus. At the same time they stole the key and sold it to the Kuij-Yin to make sure there would be some trouble! Then they sat back and watched the story unfold :)...

i don't think the cab driver from the ending sequence and most of the game are supposed to be the same character or even the same body

According to the game files the cabbie is always the same guy and he is named Caine :)!

According to the ship logs the crew was killed off during a longer time period, they didn't all die at the same time. The cab driver strikes me more of the kind of person that would do that. Jack would just slaughter the entire crew at the same time, he doesn't seem as patient and refined.

[Wesp5]

Based Dewrito eredeti hozzászólása:

According to the ship logs the crew was killed off during a longer time period, they didn't all die at the same time. The cab driver strikes me more of the kind of person that would do that. Jack would just slaughter the entire crew at the same time, he doesn't seem as patient and refined.

Agreed. But most probably the log was changed to fit to the story of the faked opening. Maybe Jack dealt with the crew while the cabbie changed the logs? I also can't get rid of the feeling that the cabbie was behind the emails from a friend which would fit his style.

[Meteor]

wesp5 eredeti hozzászólása:

Based Dewrito eredeti hozzászólása:

According to the ship logs the crew was killed off during a longer time period, they didn't all die at the same time. The cab driver strikes me more of the kind of person that would do that. Jack would just slaughter the entire crew at the same time, he doesn't seem as patient and refined.

Agreed. But most probably the log was changed to fit to the story of the faked opening. Maybe Jack dealt with the crew while the cabbie changed the logs? I also can't get rid of the feeling that the cabbie was behind the emails from a friend which would fit his style.

Nah, the emails was obviously Grout.

[Wesp5]

Based Dewrito eredeti hozzászólása:

Nah, the emails was obviously Grout.

I'm pretty sure they continue after Grout is dead...

[Meteor]

wesp5 eredeti hozzászólása:

Based Dewrito eredeti hozzászólása:

Nah, the emails was obviously Grout.

I'm pretty sure they continue after Grout is dead...

believing Grout died in the first place.

[Meteor]

Btw did you know that there are some foreshadowing in Grout's mansion Wesp? Just look at this painting: http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/10/105947/2068237-grout.jpg.

Looks like a man suffering from insanity. But if you look closer you can see that his hair looks like fire and behind him there's wolves below a night sky. Night, fire and wolves, hmmm where have I seen that before?

[Wesp5]

Based Dewrito eredeti hozzászólása:

But if you look closer you can see that his hair looks like fire and behind him there's wolves below a night sky. Night, fire and wolves, hmmm where have I seen that before?

Interesting, I've never seen it like that! I know that some people believe that Grout didn't die, but there is no actual hint for this. Also I don't think there was a single computer in his mansion and he seemed rather old-tech ;)! The same is true for Jack, I can't really picture him using a computer to contact the player, but the cabbie might have a laptop in his car.

[Meteor]

wesp5 eredeti hozzászólása:

Based Dewrito eredeti hozzászólása:

Looks like a man suffering from insanity. But if you look closer you can see that his hair looks like fire and behind him there's wolves below a night sky. Night, fire and wolves, hmmm where have I seen that before?

Interesting, I've never seen it like that! I know that some people believe that Grout didn't die, but there is no actual hint for this. Also I don't think there was a single computer in his mansion and he seemed rather old-tech ;)! The same is true for Jack, I can't really picture him using a computer to contact the player, but the cabbie might have a laptop in his car.

I think there's a couple of hints that he survived and that he's the one sending the messages. First of all: The obvious placements of the audio logs, it's like the main character is ment to find them, and they reveal that Lacroix wants to murder him. Ming Xiao(who is disguised as Nines) also seem a bit distraught when she leaves the mansion, she goes to the mansion to murder Grout but find him gone and only a skeleton left.

As to the emails: They all have chess references, one guy who seems obssessed with chess is Grout, just look at the patterns on the floor in his mansion. It also seems like the person writing the emails knows about the future, a trait Grout and Malkavians in general seem to have, just look at that painting.