Holy Hell These Warrens

[maple_chan90]

I hate everything about the warrens you have to go through to find the nosferatu:

Poor level design
The sewers are confusing, repetitive, and claustrophobic

Janky movement mechanics
Both crawling through pipes and swimming lead to the camera wigging out, and the character getting stuck from time to time

Monsters
Okay, so, some of you may find this dumb, but nothing before Hollywood led me to believe there would be nightmare fuel in this game. I got into this game because I love RPGs, and Vampire: The Masquerade is a rich world with a lot of interesting characters. I did NOT get into this game to run around hacking hellspawn to bloody pieces (otherwise I might as well be playing DOOM). I honestly don't even think it's the graphics that really disturb me. It's the sound design. I HATE the way the two armed things sound. It's geniunely unnerving, bordering on scary. I understand that's the point when you're designing something hellish and twisted, but it feels really out of place with the early game content. I don't play most horror games for this reason, and nothing I heard about this game ahead of time lead me to believe it was going to go down this route. I dunno.

I hate the way the warrens make me feel, which is really disappointing, given how much I loved the Santa Monica and Downtown portions of the game.

Does the game become more of a monster hack and slash from here on out, or will it return to its RPG roots?

[Tacosupreme]

there is a shortcut in warrens the patch added if you know which way to go.Once you find the computer you have 2 kind of tough enemies to fight but then it smooth

[maple_chan90]

Originally posted by Turtles2:

there is a shortcut in warrens the patch added if you know which way to go.Once you find the computer you have 2 kind of tough enemies to fight but then it smooth

Yeah, I read through some of the threads before I posted. I'm so far into the warrens now though that I must be near the end. I've already fought the big fleshy thing with a bunch of legs.

Is this the only part of the game like this, or will there be more dungeon-areas like this in the future?

[Vepar]

Originally posted by maple_chan90:

Originally posted by Turtles2:

there is a shortcut in warrens the patch added if you know which way to go.Once you find the computer you have 2 kind of tough enemies to fight but then it smooth

Yeah, I read through some of the threads before I posted. I'm so far into the warrens now though that I must be near the end. I've already fought the big fleshy thing with a bunch of legs.

Is this the only part of the game like this, or will there be more dungeon-areas like this in the future?

The warrems and the endgame are combat heavy. The rest of the game is like santa monica.

But endgame dorsn't have (as much) horror to it so if you are scared od the warrens monsters, this is the only really disturbing quest in the game.

[Yoinkyz]

just a tip but runnn past the enemys

[Vepar]

Originally posted by Yikes:

just a tip but runnn past the enemys

Good tip. The enemies don't give you XP anyway, so no point in fighting if you don't have to.
Though the warrens are so full of them that it's hard to just run past them without them following you, especially if that's your first playthrough and you have no idea where you're going.

[fattony75]

I never understood the hate for the sewers. Honestly with a 1/2 decent combat skilled character it takes like 15-20 minutes to beat. The patch even adds a few rats so you have blood supply.

The reason the sewers are supposed to be full of enemies is because you have to see why the Nosferatu have gone into hiding etc.

Also if you have Celerity or some damage soaking feat, or are a stealth character you can just go through the whole thing by running through it too.

Never really had a problem with the sewers.

[Vepar]

Originally posted by fattony75:

I never understood the hate for the sewers. Honestly with a 1/2 decent combat skilled character it takes like 15-20 minutes to beat. The patch even adds a few rats so you have blood supply.

The reason the sewers are supposed to be full of enemies is because you have to see why the Nosferatu have gone into hiding etc.

Also if you have Celerity or some damage soaking feat, or are a stealth character you can just go through the whole thing by running through it too.

Never really had a problem with the sewers. :headcrab:

I don't think it's the enemies, it's the confusing layout that's easy to get lost in, crawling through the long pipes to get to the next section, then you miss a pipe, reach a dead end and have to go back. Takes time and is not fun. Later there's some wonky puzzles that can instakill you and there's tons of enemies on top of that.

It's just a poorly thought out level that's all. Not fun to go through.
I get the lore behind it, but that still doesn't negate all the other problems those levels have.
And there's like, 5 or 7 of them? I forgot cause i always skip it but i know it's super long and never took me only 15 minutes to beat when i was playing it.

[acornco]

i love the old hollywood sewers... if it had fewer escapes to the surface... it would have been better.

the warrens is the first of a few forced dungeons.

theres 2 to 3 more depending on how you play the end game.

they do or can suck if you hadnt been putting alot of points into your combat.

but yeah... this game is old bro... thats what action gaming used to be. confusing, dark mazes filled with lots of angry npc's and rage quits and only one box of ammo and one health pack...

edit: actualy wesp added a way to talk your way out of doing the final dungeon. so 1-3.

[Cubie]

"I HATE the way the two armed things sound. It's geniunely unnerving, bordering on scary."
I completely agree. No matter how many times I replay Bloodlines, that SOUND always sends a cold feeling of unease down my spine.

I do however like how the game demonstrates that you are far from the mightiest or scariest thing that go bump in the World of Darkness night. From the player being bossed around by their fellow kindred (in various positions of political power), to the encounter with the conventionally unbeatable murder-ghost in the Ocean House Hotel, to Brother "as I feed on your FLEEEESH!!!" Kanker [Steam decided to censor his name for some reason. But you know, the evil nosferatu in the sewers Downtown], to the zombies in the Downtown crack-/sect house, to the Tzimisce horrors in Hollywood and so on.

Bloodlines is very much an rpg in a horror setting. Sometimes you're the monster stalking prey, and sometimes you're the monsters prey. It's funny that way.

[maple_chan90]

Originally posted by fattony75:

I never understood the hate for the sewers. Honestly with a 1/2 decent combat skilled character it takes like 15-20 minutes to beat.

Ah, now see, there's the rub. I definitely did not build my Tremere as a combat character; instead opting to favor charisma and dexterity based skills. He's been able to talk/sneak his way out of most situations, and these sewers might be the first time he's been forced into full out combat. I would probably feel slightly less frustrated if I had built him differently, but this was my first playthrough, and I didn't know any better.

I agree though that you need to justify the Nosferatu going into hiding by having a bunch of enemies (otherwise it would look silly if just one or two of those little monsters was enough to scare an entire clan of Kindred), I just don't appreciate having to hack and slash my way through them.

[Vepar]

Originally posted by maple_chan90:

Originally posted by fattony75:

I never understood the hate for the sewers. Honestly with a 1/2 decent combat skilled character it takes like 15-20 minutes to beat.

Ah, now see, there's the rub. I definitely did not build my Tremere as a combat character; instead opting to favor charisma and dexterity based skills. He's been able to talk/sneak his way out of most situations, and these sewers might be the first time he's been forced into full out combat. I would probably feel slightly less frustrated if I had built him differently, but this was my first playthrough, and I didn't know any better.

I agree though that you need to justify the Nosferatu going into hiding by having a bunch of enemies (otherwise it would look silly if just one or two of those little monsters was enough to scare an entire clan of Kindred), I just don't appreciate having to hack and slash my way through them. :dshound:

That's usually how it goes. And the game up to that point "teaches" the player there's multiple ways to solve a problem, not necesarily with violence. And then forces you into combat with little indication it's going to be like that.

To be fair, the game gives you a few "warnings" like the DMP mission, etc. where you have to fight those monsters. So it's not that the sewer mission came out of the blue, but still, it was obviously not enough to prepare people for the sewers, so most people enter them unprepared.

There's an exit in the first level of the sewers so you can get back to town and restock after you've got a "taste" of the sewers, but if you have no floating XP around to spend on combat, all you can do is get blood bags.

[fattony75]

Originally posted by Vepar:

Originally posted by maple_chan90:

Ah, now see, there's the rub. I definitely did not build my Tremere as a combat character; instead opting to favor charisma and dexterity based skills. He's been able to talk/sneak his way out of most situations, and these sewers might be the first time he's been forced into full out combat. I would probably feel slightly less frustrated if I had built him differently, but this was my first playthrough, and I didn't know any better.

I agree though that you need to justify the Nosferatu going into hiding by having a bunch of enemies (otherwise it would look silly if just one or two of those little monsters was enough to scare an entire clan of Kindred), I just don't appreciate having to hack and slash my way through them. :dshound:

That's usually how it goes. And the game up to that point "teaches" the player there's multiple ways to solve a problem, not necesarily with violence. And then forces you into combat with little indication it's going to be like that.

To be fair, the game gives you a few "warnings" like the DMP mission, etc. where you have to fight those monsters. So it's not that the sewer mission came out of the blue, but still, it was obviously not enough to prepare people for the sewers, so most people enter them unprepared.

There's an exit in the first level of the sewers so you can get back to town and restock after you've got a "taste" of the sewers, but if you have no floating XP around to spend on combat, all you can do is get blood bags.

Well ... you can also cheat just a little lol gift yourself some xp to get a combat skill to 5-6 etc.

[Vepar]

Originally posted by fattony75:

Originally posted by Vepar:

That's usually how it goes. And the game up to that point "teaches" the player there's multiple ways to solve a problem, not necesarily with violence. And then forces you into combat with little indication it's going to be like that.

To be fair, the game gives you a few "warnings" like the DMP mission, etc. where you have to fight those monsters. So it's not that the sewer mission came out of the blue, but still, it was obviously not enough to prepare people for the sewers, so most people enter them unprepared.

There's an exit in the first level of the sewers so you can get back to town and restock after you've got a "taste" of the sewers, but if you have no floating XP around to spend on combat, all you can do is get blood bags.

Well ... you can also cheat just a little lol gift yourself some xp to get a combat skill to 5-6 etc.

Well yeah, but then if you cheat, everything is easy and nothing has any consequence if you can just gift yourself XP. Then the warrens aren't bad at all.

But part of the game is XP management, and how you build your character. So if you didn't put much into stealth the entire game, or at all, you're forced to fight your way through situations. If you just give yourself 5 stealth just because, then it all loses any meaning.

So yeah, cheats can of course be effective, but that's not the intended way to play, and honestly, doesn't affect this conversation much because cheats defeat the whole purpose of the warrens and why they're hard and scary and no one likes them.

[Anderson]

Originally posted by fattony75:

Originally posted by Vepar:

That's usually how it goes. And the game up to that point "teaches" the player there's multiple ways to solve a problem, not necesarily with violence. And then forces you into combat with little indication it's going to be like that.

To be fair, the game gives you a few "warnings" like the DMP mission, etc. where you have to fight those monsters. So it's not that the sewer mission came out of the blue, but still, it was obviously not enough to prepare people for the sewers, so most people enter them unprepared.

There's an exit in the first level of the sewers so you can get back to town and restock after you've got a "taste" of the sewers, but if you have no floating XP around to spend on combat, all you can do is get blood bags.

Well ... you can also cheat just a little lol gift yourself some xp to get a combat skill to 5-6 etc. :lunar2019deadpanpig:

The warrens still suck, you just have to noclip through them when putting cheats to good use. They are not scary. The fiends are just cheap jump scares.

That's why Silent Hill is considered quality horror - it creates a disturbing atmosphere and has a lot of tension. But without the cheap "boo!"

[Yoinkyz]

for real do just run??????? like you can hop and hop to build speed? did i only figure that out?