Sibling Rivalry

[Tysakasa]

So I'm doing a Ventrue playthrough where I take a diplomatic//negotiator approach to things ... or just dominate the person if it seems like the better option, like with Boris. However I've always had some difficulties trying to get the options that'll lead to the co-existance of the sisters. Was wondering if someone could tell me the current consistent method of having both of them live? Using the latest Unofficial Patch.

[Wesp5]

Whenever you talk to them you need to be polite and do their bidding, only you shouldn't give the pendant to Jeanette. Then in the last dialogue you'll need a Persuasion of great than 3...

[Tysakasa]

Hmm, alright because I tried that and it didn't seem to end well. Maybe because I was a bit too neutral when dealing with them? It's probably the one part in the entire game that drives me nuts XD kind of wish I could track their relationship gains to make sure I'm going the right way with them. I guess I'll also ask this, but do I need to sleep with Jeanette? or is that optional when trying to get them to co-exist?

[Vepar]

Originally posted by Tysakasa:

Kind of wish I could track their relationship gains to make sure I'm going the right way with them. I guess I'll also ask this, but do I need to sleep with Jeanette? or is that optional when trying to get them to co-exist?

You kind of can with the console, but i'm not sure how, wesp5 might know or browse the extras folder in your VTMB installation for the console commands. I know i did it, but at the end and it was too late to change anything.

As for sleeping with Janette, it's optional i think. You'll need seduction for that.

[Wesp5]

Originally posted by Tysakasa:

...kind of wish I could track their relationship gains to make sure I'm going the right way with them.

Indeed you can, the console commands are G.Jeanette_Seduce and G.Therese_Seduce. Both need to be >= 4 and they have nothing to do with the Seduction stat.

[Tysakasa]

Yeah I read about that, just wasn't sure how to find it when I was poking around the game's wiki guide since I didn't know I could bring it up through the console (my console knowledge is very limited >.> ) But thanks for that, it'll make it easier to get them to co-exist.

[Tacosupreme]

I kind of laugh when people say I need to give jeanette the peandant in order to get Jeanette's favor and be able to have that Option to side with her .I still got that option even though I politely said no and gave pendant to Therea she then got upset and said to go slash painting I called her a ♥♥♥♥♥ and she ignored it I did that quest and after it all I still could side with Jeanette and she still also sent me the come visit me emails . So watch the dialogue in end convo if you don't chose a side then you should have the option to not do anything or grab the gun. If you want Jeanette to survive you must side with you in the whole end convo then tell her to grab the gun

[GAME GOD FLUENT]

The issue is the relationship part is so complex you'll never know how you're doing until it's too late. I didn't even realize that previous conversations played a part in who survived. I played that scene 10 times trying to get them both to survive and simply couldn't, most likely because I was nice to Jeanette in previous conversations, gave her the pendant, etc.. So at that point, even trying at least 10 different attempts I couldn't get them to both survive. I ended up having Jeanette kill Therese, although most endings I tried had Therese killing Jeanette.

I have mixed feelings about how the systems work there. It would be cool if it were a bit more hand-holdy here, a little more obvious of how the conversation is going and how well you're doing in the previous encounters. Not saying to make it overly game-y and predictable, but trying to suss out how that final conversation was going + trying to account for previous conversations where you didn't even know those would have an impact on relationships like that is a bit much. I love complex CRPGs but those sections were obtuse even to me.

I'd say that having more ways to "atone" for previous conversations or choices could work, so you wouldn't essentially hit a dead end where one of them must die because of how you handled a choice a few quests ago. Also, a tutorial at the start of the game letting you know just how sensitive the conversation options are would have been great. I'm here thinking that even small details made a difference, like how you said goodbye to them in each encounter (i.e. if your response was overly nice/flirty, or dismissive, or just "normal" and slightly nice, etc..) Not sure if I'm being clear but that's just my 2 cents.

[Vepar]

Originally posted by TNO:

The issue is the relationship part is so complex you'll never know how you're doing until it's too late. I didn't even realize that previous conversations played a part in who survived. I played that scene 10 times trying to get them both to survive and simply couldn't, most likely because I was nice to Jeanette in previous conversations, gave her the pendant, etc.. So at that point, even trying at least 10 different attempts I couldn't get them to both survive. I ended up having Jeanette kill Therese, although most endings I tried had Therese killing Jeanette.

I have mixed feelings about how the systems work there. It would be cool if it were a bit more hand-holdy here, a little more obvious of how the conversation is going and how well you're doing in the previous encounters. Not saying to make it overly game-y and predictable, but trying to suss out how that final conversation was going + trying to account for previous conversations where you didn't even realize it would have a big impact on relationships like that is a bit much. I love complex CRPGs but those sections were obtuse even to me.

I'd say that having more ways to "atone" for previous conversations or choices could work, so you wouldn't hit essentially a dead end where one of them must die because of how you handled a choice a few quests ago. Not sure if I'm being clear but that's just my 2 cents.

Yes but, that's essentially an "easter egg" type of resolution to the quest. Everyone knows about it now, but back then it was something to be discovered by more or less accident. No one was trying to get the both survive ending on purpose. And it's only a few more XP bonus, not a big deal if you miss it.

[GAME GOD FLUENT]

Originally posted by Vepar:

Originally posted by TNO:

The issue is the relationship part is so complex you'll never know how you're doing until it's too late. I didn't even realize that previous conversations played a part in who survived. I played that scene 10 times trying to get them both to survive and simply couldn't, most likely because I was nice to Jeanette in previous conversations, gave her the pendant, etc.. So at that point, even trying at least 10 different attempts I couldn't get them to both survive. I ended up having Jeanette kill Therese, although most endings I tried had Therese killing Jeanette.

I have mixed feelings about how the systems work there. It would be cool if it were a bit more hand-holdy here, a little more obvious of how the conversation is going and how well you're doing in the previous encounters. Not saying to make it overly game-y and predictable, but trying to suss out how that final conversation was going + trying to account for previous conversations where you didn't even realize it would have a big impact on relationships like that is a bit much. I love complex CRPGs but those sections were obtuse even to me.

I'd say that having more ways to "atone" for previous conversations or choices could work, so you wouldn't hit essentially a dead end where one of them must die because of how you handled a choice a few quests ago. Not sure if I'm being clear but that's just my 2 cents.

Yes but, that's essentially an "easter egg" type of resolution to the quest. Everyone knows about it now, but back then it was something to be discovered by more or less accident. No one was trying to get the both survive ending on purpose. And it's only a few more XP bonus, not a big deal if you miss it.

Well 2 extra XP at that point is pretty sweet. IMO, it should be a viable option rather than an Easter Egg. To me, since the quest already allows one to kill the other, and 99% of the solutions will be that, I think the 3rd solution should be there as well. If you're arguing that it was an Easter Egg back then, okay, but that seems like an odd choice to me. If the game released today it would no doubt be a viable 3rd option, that may be harder to get, but easier to get than simply stumbling on it purely by a very lucky accident. If that makes sense.

[Vepar]

Originally posted by TNO:

If the game released today it would no doubt be a viable 3rd option, that may be harder to get, but easier to get than simply stumbling on it purely by a very lucky accident. If that makes sense.

But it wasn't released today and that's how the devs did it back then. The unofficial patch doesn't change the core design logic of the game, even the plus patch, wesp5 tries very hard to keep all the additions true to the original. So i don't know what your point is... Yes, they design games differently now. Shocker. They designed games differently when VTMB was released. Obviously...

[GAME GOD FLUENT]

It just seems like you get 2 "bad endings" to that quest, unless you get incredibly lucky. I'm just stating that I feel it was poor design.

[Vepar]

Originally posted by TNO:

It just seems like you get 2 "bad endings" to that quest, unless you get incredibly lucky. I'm just stating that I feel it was poor design.

Well maybe it was, probably is by today's standards but that's the beauty of those early games.

You didn't have to see everything in your first playthrough and some parts were really obscure. But to be fair, nothing really hints on them being the same person until the surprise reveal at the end. The cutscene is even designed that way to give you a surprise moment.

Hinting that you have to be nice to both sisters only means that "there's going to be something involving both sisters later" type handholding that ruins potentially good games today.

So i'd argue that it was a really good design choice.

As for the ending, you only feel that way because you know they can both survive, but other than that, what ending is a good ending in a world of darkness? No one is a saint there, not even the sisters, all vampires are monsters like Jack tells you, no matter how civilised and there are no happy endings whatsoever. That's the dark beauty of it all and why this game has such a great atmosphere.

Even if you save both sisters, what did you really do? For the remainder of the game they stay in split personality mode meaning they have no intention of being one or the other, and even if that's not a conscious desing choice, you just left them there doing nothing. Yay, they're both alive... In one body... In one room... Doing nothing... Happy ending!

[GAME GOD FLUENT]

I love surprises and CRPG complexities like that. I don't want too much hand-holding (I'm fine with old-school CRPG designs, I am playing Bloodlines again, aren't I? :P), I'm just saying that in that specific case I find it a bit TOO obtuse and obscure. Yes, you want to see new things in replays of the game, but this is my second time through and still couldn't figure it out, even after re-loading 10+ times. I'd say that's a bit "too much", don't you think? I've also played Planescape: Torment, Arcanum, etc. etc., so it's not like this is new to me.

I would just say that if you're going to go through the trouble of adding multiple resolutions like that, which in many cases would be the best resolution (since Jeanette misses Therese and needs her, and in the same respect Therese needed Jeanette's wild side as well. A sister dying is considered a bad ending) I'd hope that those other endings are actually reachable without need of a specific walkthrough or step-by-step guide. At the very least, several quests ago shouldn't have as large of an impact to land you in a dead end situation. There should be a little more wiggle room. I think there's a way to design it where it could be harder to achieve that ending, but also not 99.8% missable. That's an example where it could have had more of a middle ground IMO. But again that's just my take on it.

[Vepar]

I played the game like 50 times now and just on my recent playthrough i discovered some new dialogue with Isaac that you can only get as a Malkavian and i don't even know how to replicate it.

It's not just Therese and Janette. The whole game is huge with tons of secrets and because of those systems that allow for failure it feels the game world is alive which makes the game feel immersive.

The third resolution is the secret one. Adding wiggle room would spoil the secret most likely. Again. We only know that there's a thirs option of them both surviving because it's been covered to death everywhere and the game is old. The "true" ending to their quest line is the bad one, one of them dying. Them surviving is only a secret bonus, reflected by the extra xp.

[GAME GOD FLUENT]

Well I still think it's a bit too obscure, and I love choices and multiple endings. I think the fact that previous quests play such a large part in the ending is weird. If you didn't know that (again, a tutorial or something would help here), you're going to miss it unless you specifically look up a walkthrough. Maybe a chance to at least figure something out in the last conversation to get that ending would be fine. I re-loaded 10 times and tried every possibility I could think of because I wanted to see that ending and still couldn't. But it's all good. Just posting in case new RPG developers read this sort of thing. This is still one of my favorite RPGs ever, if not favorite game. :)