Which group is truly better for all Kindred?

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

I think Strauss backed Camarilla would be the best group for all Kindred and the worst, excluding Ming (For obvious reasons.) would be just You.

The Sabbat seem like little more than a suicide cult.

The Anarchs couldn't last on their own.
Between the Sabbat, Ming's holdouts and normal vampire hunters (Among other groups.) I don't see how they could last long on their own. Jack doesn't actually support them Nor do I do think he could think of a plan to defeat all three without Cain's help and there's no telling what Cain would want out of that deal, probably wouldn't be good for the kindred though.

Lacroix backed Camarilla is little more than a child cheating and making up rules to ensure he wins. Instead of sitting down with the Sabbat and the Anarchs and trying to get their help in defeating the true enemy to their entire species (Ming) he instead made deals with the demon at the gates to try and turn all his enemies against eachother and then gambled his entire clan's well being with a potential Antediluvian of unknown origins. If the coffin did have a Antediluvian within, it undeniably would of been able to completely destroy Ming and her forces single-handily, but it would also completely destroy it's Clan and potentially try to start a new clan, Exposing Kindred to all of Kine, possibly sparking the end of everything for everyone.

And just you would be all the bad choices unfolding at once.

[dwarfpcfan]

Speaking of the tabletop setting (at least pre V5 edition which I haven't looked at). The Anarchs are essentially doomed to failure, the one time they conquered a domain, it quickly fell down because anarchy doesn't really work for blood drinking predators and eventually their domain went to war with the Sabbat and was later conquered by the Kuei-jin. These events are related in the book Nights of Prophecy.

Sabbat domains are hellholes because the sabbat is about rejecting humanity, that's the short of it. If you are an inhuman monster who doesn't care about humanity then the sabbat might work for you but otherwise, its not worth it. No small wonder that the most prominent sabbat domains are in Central America (Mexico being their strongest center)

Camarilla domains vary a lot from domain to domain, but they are essentially most of the big cities in the western world, with all that implies.

[BanDHMO]

I'm sure the Gangrel who were experimented on and stitched into weird magical contraptions by Strauss' clan would vehemently disagree with your choice, seeing as it leads to a more powerful Tremere. :) There's a reason so many clans hate them.

The Anarchs are incapable of being in control, I agree. They are the constantly upset opposition, who can't actually keep a domain functioning at least as good as the kindred they are criticizing.

Between Camarill and Sabbat, though, it's a hard pick. Although it looks like Cams are order and peace, while Sabbat is chaos and fire, and the easy conclusion is that vampires can be safe under Camarilla and hunted under Sabbat, a deeper contemplation would suggest it's not as simple.

Sabbat definitely do care about not being discovered and wiped out by kine, and they do cover their actions up, they just do it in a very different way. Cam tries to suppress their own activity to be not noticible below the normal levels of human activity. Sabbat tries to increase the "normal" to levels where vampire actions do not stand out.

I don't know which one is better. Arguably, the murky waters the Sabbat strategy creates are easier to operate in quickly an decisively, which may be an advantage.

In the end, it's important to remember, there's no such thing as Kindredkind and no "good guys" who are fighting to preserve it and benefit it. These are cursed monsters, whose only means to more power is by eating one another. They scheme, backstab, lie, cheat, and many other things, but they definitely do not work together towards a common goal, unless forced.

[MonkeyMummyMoney]

Originally posted by BanDHMO:

I'm sure the Gangrel who were experimented on and stitched into weird magical contraptions by Strauss' clan would vehemently disagree with your choice, seeing as it leads to a more powerful Tremere. :) There's a reason so many clans hate them.

The Anarchs are incapable of being in control, I agree. They are the constantly upset opposition, who can't actually keep a domain functioning at least as good as the kindred they are criticizing.

Between Camarill and Sabbat, though, it's a hard pick. Although it looks like Cams are order and peace, while Sabbat is chaos and fire, and the easy conclusion is that vampires can be safe under Camarilla and hunted under Sabbat, a deeper contemplation would suggest it's not as simple.

Sabbat definitely do care about not being discovered and wiped out by kine, and they do cover their actions up, they just do it in a very different way. Cam tries to suppress their own activity to be not noticible below the normal levels of human activity. Sabbat tries to increase the "normal" to levels where vampire actions do not stand out.

I don't know which one is better. Arguably, the murky waters the Sabbat strategy creates are easier to operate in quickly an decisively, which may be an advantage.

In the end, it's important to remember, there's no such thing as Kindredkind and no "good guys" who are fighting to preserve it and benefit it. These are cursed monsters, whose only means to more power is by eating one another. They scheme, backstab, lie, cheat, and many other things, but they definitely do not work together towards a common goal, unless forced.

The Gargoyle wouldn't have any say in the matter either way. While under the control of their masters, they're little more than trained hounds. When wild, rabid beasts.

The reason the Treme aren't well liked, and deeply feared, by the other clans is because the Tremere tortured and mutilated Tzimisce vampires (In a way the Tremere are just a distant branch of the Tzimisce family-tree.) and once that was finished they learned that the rest of the Vampire society still looked down on them as being less than Thin-Bloods. They were a clan that hadn't existed for long and none really knew what they could do with Blood yet and since they weren't born directly from Cain, many viewed them as the bottom of the Kindred totem pole.

Realizing this, they sought out a powerful third generation vampire to Diablarize, since they didn't know what they could do yet and not having the numbers, they went after the "Weakest" one they could find, Saulot. This angered almost all of Kindred society because Saulot was something akin to the Vampires Jesus. He had a strong since of compassion, even for kine, and tried to embody all the good aspects of humanity. Some how he had also gained the respect and admiration of most of the other clans. Although Saulot didn't actually die, in 1999 he completely took over Tremere himself, basically being "Reborn". (On an Old enough Vampire, Diablarizing has a very strong chance of back-firing. It's one of the many reasons I can't get behind a thin-blood Diablarizing a Antidiluvian in the new game. But, that's just a rumor, Hopefully one that isn't true.)

And they're feared because they created a completely new and different Vampire clan by Mutating, Mutilating, combining and experimenting on Gangrels and Nosferatu (And likely other clans.) presumably against their will. If someone could do that, in theory, they would surpass even Cains creation skills. If they made those abominations, who's to say what else they've made and what other things they have their hands in? (Seeing as how their roots are found with mages, it's presumed they have at least a passing understanding of necromancy and potential have alliances drawn with both Kith and Wraith. Then you have the Baali, which many vampires likely considered the Tremere a part of.)

And then there's Thaurmaturgy it's self. An extremely powerful, game changing even, Discipline and it's guarded closer than the Tzimisce guard Vicissitude.

[d3athstroke]

Anarchs need constant writing bias to survive. Even in this game they are only group you can't kill.