The Grout Debate (SPOILERS)

[PERSONAL BEAVIS]

At one point in the main story the player is tasked with checking up with Dr. Alistair Grout, the Malkavian primogen for LA. As the fledgling approaches Dr. Grout's mansion, someone who is apparently Nines Rodriguez and is (probably) actually Ming-Xiao is seen leaving. After a brief exchange and a lengthy puzzle dungeon, the player encounters what is presented to be the ashed skeleton of Dr. Grout, tied cruciform to his bed, staked through the stigmata points (hands and feet). Immediately thereafter, the fledgling encounters a rude pyromaniac vampire hunter and flees the flaming house.

I don't think Dr. Grout died.

EVIDENCE:

First, we must examine what we know of Dr. Grout from the evidence given. Judging from the portrait in the main hall, he was already quite old when he got the Embrace. Afterwards, the doctor faked his death in an automobile crash using a human corpse of unknown provenance. All Malkavians are mad, and besides the whispers common to all of them, Dr. Grout's madness was that of extreme skepticism, disbelief that vampirism was really a state of undeath but rather a disease that can potentially be cured. As such, he regarded the vampire histories as nothing but fairy tales and had only disdain for vampire politics. Dr. Grout only accepted the role of Primogen to further his studies, and suspects he was only offered it due to his ability to communicate in normal sentences and not riddles or series of barks and screams, as is standard for Malkavians.

The tapes you can find in Dr. Grout's house detail his experience among the high and mighty vampires of Los Angeles. He heard voices coming from them, voices that warned him of the designs of a powerful vampire he did not dare name on the recording for fear of reprisal. The last of the tapes were Grout stating his intention to flee and that he fears he must strike "a Faustian bargain".

We've already established that Dr. Grout had already faked his death once (see the newspaper on the altar in the weird little church room) and was most likely willing to murder in order to disappear. Hell, the good doctor probably didn't have the highest Humanity stat even when he was human, judging by his waxing poetic on insane asylums.

We also must consider the condition of the remains we found: crucified. I doubt a Kuei-Jin would go through all the trouble to implement Christian imagery in the kill. Neither would Nines, if that's who LaCroix was hoping to pin it all on.

HOW I THINK IT WENT DOWN:

Dr. Grout, fearing that LaCroix was coming for him, decided to fake his Final Death and Obfu-skate out of town. He did this by Embracing an unknown somebody, pinning them to his bed, killing them (he might have even turned them after pinning them down, to make it easier), and then placing a call to the Society of Leopold, anonymously dropping a dime on himself and assuming that whoever they sent would simply take credit for the kill, because why wouldn't they? Having done all that, he boogied out of town some time before Ming-Xiao swooped in, saw the remains, and then left in the form of Nines. Then after you get through the house you encounter Bach, who presumably chopped his way in through the roof before setting the place on fire.

ONE FINAL BIT OF EVIDENCE:

Using knowledge from the tabletop game of Vampire: The Masquerade that's not mentioned in game might be contentious, and that's why I saved this for the end. The sourcebooks say that a vampire that's been Embraced for over ten years is highly unlikely to leave a skeleton when killed. Dr. Grout was a vampire for over 70 years, and was already old when he became one. So the skeleton you find on the bed, was almost certainly not Dr. Grout.

Well, that's all I got. It's been banging around in my head for long enough. Any thoughts? Evidence to the contrary?

[l'homme rouge]

Well i guess you are not the first one saying this. I remember someone has opened similar thread to this one. Was it you xd?

[d3athstroke]

If there is argument to make about someone not being dead in any fictional series that is not over it is only matter of time before that character comes back.

[† ßâd•£üç]< Îñç™]

You're not the only one who has debated this, believe me. I used to wonder if there was more to this part of the storyline that went unfinished since Troika was pushed to release the game incomplete.

SPOILER ALERT
The 'Faustian bargain' could have been made with Ming-Xaio - only it doesn't make sense for her (or Nines, whom she was attempting to frame) to murder Grout in faux-crucifixion fashion as it seems like something Bach would do. On the other hand, it is plausible Grout could have bargained with the vampire hunter himself seeing that Bach has a special hatred for LaCroix[vtmb.fandom.com]. And who knows how much Bach understood about the moon-mad childer of Malkav, especially since Grout did not understand of his own affliction. However, if it wasn't Ming or Bach he made a bargain with, then perhaps Grout's Faustian deal was in the form of using one of his asylum subjects to meet final death in his stead... as well as sacrificing his beloved wife who was still preserved in the glass container when the mansion burned down. Unless you're playing the Antitribu mod.

[Wesp5]

First of all, the info about the car crash was added by me in the UP so it doesn't matter ;). To me the Faustian Deal was asking Nines to help against LaCroix, which would have made sense, but LaCroix somehow became aware of this and sent Ming instead to kill two birds with one stone...

[PERSONAL BEAVIS]

Originally posted by wesp5:

First of all, the info about the car crash was added by me in the UP so it doesn't matter ;). To me the Faustian Deal was asking Nines to help against LaCroix, which would have made sense, but LaCroix somehow became aware of this and sent Ming instead to kill two birds with one stone...

well hell. Tell me you found it in unused data and didn't make it out of whole cloth

[Wesp5]

Originally posted by PERSONAL BEAVIS:

Tell me you found it in unused data and didn't make it out of whole cloth

Sorry, but the only official thing is him saying he fakes his death, the rest I improvised :)!

[dwarfpcfan]

Malkavian's have obfuscate, the third dot in the tabletop "mask of a thousand faces" allows the vampire using to take on the appearance of another, it's a popular trick among nosferatu to hide their hideous appearance.

So it's not inconceivable he might have faked his death. But it's just conjecture There's really no actual evidence for it, only possibility. The dead vampires turn to dust thing when they die if they are too old is not a 100% thing it's just one way time catches up to the corpses of dead vampires, some might rot away, others can leave bones, etc. You read accross the books and it's not a 100% thing. The books never stopped long on this as it was always something left to the storyteller but a corpse being there proves nothing.

Also on the other side, Both Bach and Ming Xia are definitely capable of destroying Grout with relative ease. While the game provides a poor representation of the True Faith power it's worth noting that True Faith at high enough ratings makes a user straight up immune to dominate, majesty, dementation and obfuscate as it protects from mental powers. True faith also allows to basically destroy vampires by reciting prayers which will inflict aggravated damage that is unsoakable. This means all of Grout's powers beyond blood buff essentially become useless when fighting Bach. True Faith is no joke in VTM. And Bach's rating to pull off the tricks he shows in the game are around 8-9. Given the proclivity of Society of Leopold hunters at using fire, there's really nothing ton suggest Bach couldn't have killed Grout easily.

Given he says himself he didn't kill him. That leaves Ming Xiao.

She's a Kuei-Jin and based on the fight with her she likely has Tapestry 4, Blood Shintai 4, Flesh Shintai 4-5 and Demon Shintai 4-5 and maybe smoke shintai 3. Plenty to walk all over Grout, take his form and kill him. Xiao is up there with the Sheriff as probably the most powerful thing the fledgling encounters. And given that she really gains nothing by lying about her deed since she wants to get the PC on her side by telling the truth, there's nothing to suggest she was lying (I mean she could, but there's no more reason for her to do it then tell the truth in the game scenario)

[nambulous]

I don't buy that theory for a second. I don't even want to go into all the speculations like he never would have left his wife behind, if he really faked his death (for example).

[Wesp5]

Originally posted by nambulous:

I don't even want to go into all the speculations like he never would have left his wife behind, if he really faked his death (for example).

That's a very good argument that I never considered! I always go for Occams Razor, but indeed he would never leave his wife behind. Now the Grout-is-alive-conspiratists will probably argue that what we see is a puppet or some even more illogical stuff though ;)...

[nambulous]

To me Grout is really like Mr. Freeze from Batman, who does everything he does only to cure his wife. :D

[PERSONAL BEAVIS]

Originally posted by dwarfpcfan:

Malkavian's have obfuscate, the third dot in the tabletop "mask of a thousand faces" allows the vampire using to take on the appearance of another, it's a popular trick among nosferatu to hide their hideous appearance.

So it's not inconceivable he might have faked his death. But it's just conjecture There's really no actual evidence for it, only possibility. The dead vampires turn to dust thing when they die if they are too old is not a 100% thing it's just one way time catches up to the corpses of dead vampires, some might rot away, others can leave bones, etc. You read accross the books and it's not a 100% thing. The books never stopped long on this as it was always something left to the storyteller but a corpse being there proves nothing.

Also on the other side, Both Bach and Ming Xia are definitely capable of destroying Grout with relative ease. While the game provides a poor representation of the True Faith power it's worth noting that True Faith at high enough ratings makes a user straight up immune to dominate, majesty, dementation and obfuscate as it protects from mental powers. True faith also allows to basically destroy vampires by reciting prayers which will inflict aggravated damage that is unsoakable. This means all of Grout's powers beyond blood buff essentially become useless when fighting Bach. True Faith is no joke in VTM. And Bach's rating to pull off the tricks he shows in the game are around 8-9. Given the proclivity of Society of Leopold hunters at using fire, there's really nothing ton suggest Bach couldn't have killed Grout easily.

Given he says himself he didn't kill him. That leaves Ming Xiao.

She's a Kuei-Jin and based on the fight with her she likely has Tapestry 4, Blood Shintai 4, Flesh Shintai 4-5 and Demon Shintai 4-5 and maybe smoke shintai 3. Plenty to walk all over Grout, take his form and kill him. Xiao is up there with the Sheriff as probably the most powerful thing the fledgling encounters. And given that she really gains nothing by lying about her deed since she wants to get the PC on her side by telling the truth, there's nothing to suggest she was lying (I mean she could, but there's no more reason for her to do it then tell the truth in the game scenario)

There's a lot of stuff there that, Ima be honest, I am not gonna look up. I will say that I never said Grout COULDN'T have been killed by M-X, just that he was probably gone by the first time his phone went unanswered. And as far as M-X not having reason to lie: you've never dealt with rich people, have you? They'll take any excuse to withhold payment.

[OldMemes.biz]

He's dead and the "Nines" you run in to outside the Mansion is Ming.

Period.

[l'homme rouge]

Originally posted by Names:

He's dead and the "Nines" you run in to outside the Mansion is Ming.

Period.

Thanks cpt. obvious

[OldMemes.biz]

Originally posted by Winged Hussar:

Originally posted by Names:

He's dead and the "Nines" you run in to outside the Mansion is Ming.

Period.

Thanks cpt. obvious

You'd think it obvious except there's a vocal clique of weirdos on this forum who insist that it's not Ming.

[† ßâd•£üç]< Îñç™]

Originally posted by Names:

He's dead and the "Nines" you run in to outside the Mansion is Ming.

Period.

Players should take the time to talk to Rosa[whitewolf.fandom.com] to be familiar with this already.