Malkavian model

[amoletters]

I love playing malkavians, but I hate how sexualized the model is. I know there are a bunch of mods for more subtle outfits but I hate the model itself. The jiggle physics are just a little ridiculous and as far as I can tell they’re the only clan that has them. Does anybody have any idea how to swap the model with that of another clan. I like the bruja and Gangrel models, but honestly any of them will do. Please and thank you!

[Drukaris]

this is dumb and pretentious on so many levels that i actually feel offended

[Rob'sEvilTwin]

I quite like this model and re-skin for the Malkavian female.
https://www.nexusmods.com/vampirebloodlines/mods/105?tab=images

[malvex_pavak17]

Origineel geplaatst door Rob'sEvilTwin:

I quite like this model and re-skin for the Malkavian female.
https://www.nexusmods.com/vampirebloodlines/mods/105?tab=images

Not to my tastes but it is a good compromise between something someone would (more or less) realistically wear and the fetish clothes vanilla forces you with. Still sexy, but wouldn't get you arrested, you know, if the cops in the game weren't rambo cops that are just itching to kill people and nothing more. Except Chunk, but then he is more like a glorified mall guard that gets to guard other places sometimes.

[ZoeSpatula]

it's funny how often times in pop culture female characters with mental issues end up being overly sexualized which some people like to pass off as part of their madness. as if insanity will make you want to ♥♥♥♥ like a rabbit or dress like a prostitute. but only the female characters!

[Vepar]

I love how everyone, once they see a skirt, assume a female character is a slut while totally forgetting all the qualities she has, what a powerful character she is and ultimately, in the story, did the impossible.

All of you who think you're better than everyone for being a white knight in shining armour paving the way for "equality" or something because you detest how slutty the character looks, go look in a mirror because you're the one who thinks the character is a slut based on her looks.

Get over yourselves. A skirt is just a skirt. It's you who can't see past that, it's you who's linking sluttyness to insanity, and it's you who can't see what a tragic, yet powerful character the female Malkavian is.

Who are you to judge people or characters by the way they dress?
That's the whole ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ point of the way she dresses, and why the devs dressed her that way. Because that's not who she is. Just like you have to look past the madness all Malkavians inherit, you have to look past the clothing to see the real character.
That's why a male malkavian dresses like a clown.

EDIT: Also, before the inevitable "ooh why isn't the male malkavian sexualized the" retort - he's not because the audiences weren't ready for that yet then. Had the game been made today, maybe the design choice would be for both of them to wear assless chaps, but the game would have been criticised too much for it back then.

Other clans, who aren't mad and don't have layers dress according to their clan, and very predictable, and don't come here telling me other female character clans aren't sexualized, they all are, it's media, you can't sell a hair spray without sex these days and couldn't for a long time. That's not the issue here.

So get lost with your holier than thou attitude, you're the ones who are sexualizing the character by not looking past the clothes and acknowledging her strengths.

[malvex_pavak17]

Origineel geplaatst door Vepar:

I love how everyone, once they see a skirt, assume a female character is a slut while totally forgetting all the qualities she has, what a powerful character she is and ultimately, in the story, did the impossible.

All of you who think you're better than everyone for being a white knight in shining armour paving the way for "equality" or something because you detest how slutty the character looks, go look in a mirror because you're the one who thinks the character is a slut based on her looks.

Get over yourselves. A skirt is just a skirt. It's you who can't see past that, it's you who's linking sluttyness to insanity, and it's you who can't see what a tragic, yet powerful character the female Malkavian is.

Who are you to judge people or characters by the way they dress?
That's the whole ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ point of the way she dresses, and why the devs dressed her that way. Because that's not who she is. Just like you have to look past the madness all Malkavians inherit, you have to look past the clothing to see the real character.
That's why a male malkavian dresses like a clown.

EDIT: Also, before the inevitable "ooh why isn't the male malkavian sexualized the" retort - he's not because the audiences weren't ready for that yet then. Had the game been made today, maybe the design choice would be for both of them to wear assless chaps, but the game would have been criticised too much for it back then.

Other clans, who aren't mad and don't have layers dress according to their clan, and very predictable, and don't come here telling me other female character clans aren't sexualized, they all are, it's media, you can't sell a hair spray without sex these days and couldn't for a long time. That's not the issue here.

So get lost with your holier than thou attitude, you're the ones who are sexualizing the character by not looking past the clothes and acknowledging her strengths.

I don't know why you feel so strongly about this, and I apologize if I offended you, but that neither changes that the vanilla skins aren't to my tastes nor are they necessary for the character to work narratively, whether the audience was ready, or whether it was the original intention of the makers of the game, Trokia proved it wasn't necessary with the male Malkavian. Yes, with great skill and care such a story of sexuality can be done, such as with Therese and Jeanette (whom I have not spoken of and for good reason, she is this handled well imo) but that is not what we were given in the game with the female Malkavian, at least in my opinion.

I can say I am offended at your accusations though, I neither think the character is a slut (unless roleplayed that way purposely) nor do I think such behavior is a sign of general insanity (the closest disorder is nymphomania which is a medical condition but I think it has little to nothing to do with the pc malk's actions unless roleplayed that way nor do I think that is the only reason to have a sexually active lifestyle in general). I acknowledge her strengths: they are the same as every other player character, male or female (player skill may vary) and I have certainly not said otherwise before.

That we disagree on the purpose of the sexualization of the character is just that, a disagreement. We can discuss and debate without lowering ourselves to condescending remarks.

[Vepar]

Origineel geplaatst door malvex_pavak17:

Origineel geplaatst door Vepar:

I love how everyone, once they see a skirt, assume a female character is a slut while totally forgetting all the qualities she has, what a powerful character she is and ultimately, in the story, did the impossible.

All of you who think you're better than everyone for being a white knight in shining armour paving the way for "equality" or something because you detest how slutty the character looks, go look in a mirror because you're the one who thinks the character is a slut based on her looks.

Get over yourselves. A skirt is just a skirt. It's you who can't see past that, it's you who's linking sluttyness to insanity, and it's you who can't see what a tragic, yet powerful character the female Malkavian is.

Who are you to judge people or characters by the way they dress?
That's the whole ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ point of the way she dresses, and why the devs dressed her that way. Because that's not who she is. Just like you have to look past the madness all Malkavians inherit, you have to look past the clothing to see the real character.
That's why a male malkavian dresses like a clown.

EDIT: Also, before the inevitable "ooh why isn't the male malkavian sexualized the" retort - he's not because the audiences weren't ready for that yet then. Had the game been made today, maybe the design choice would be for both of them to wear assless chaps, but the game would have been criticised too much for it back then.

Other clans, who aren't mad and don't have layers dress according to their clan, and very predictable, and don't come here telling me other female character clans aren't sexualized, they all are, it's media, you can't sell a hair spray without sex these days and couldn't for a long time. That's not the issue here.

So get lost with your holier than thou attitude, you're the ones who are sexualizing the character by not looking past the clothes and acknowledging her strengths.

I don't know why you feel so strongly about this, and I apologize if I offended you, but that neither changes that the vanilla skins aren't to my tastes nor are they necessary for the character to work narratively, whether the audience was ready, or whether it was the original intention of the makers of the game, Trokia proved it wasn't necessary with the male Malkavian. Yes, with great skill and care such a story of sexuality can be done, such as with Therese and Jeanette (whom I have not spoken of and for good reason, she is this handled well imo) but that is not what we were given in the game with the female Malkavian, at least in my opinion.

I can say I am offended at your accusations though, I neither think the character is a slut (unless roleplayed that way purposely) nor do I think such behavior is a sign of general insanity (the closest disorder is nymphomania which is a medical condition but I think it has little to nothing to do with the pc malk's actions unless roleplayed that way nor do I think that is the only reason to have a sexually active lifestyle in general). I acknowledge her strengths: they are the same as every other player character, male or female (player skill may vary) and I have certainly not said otherwise before.

That we disagree on the purpose of the sexualization of the character is just that, a disagreement. We can discuss and debate without lowering ourselves to condescending remarks.

I wasn't offended, especially not by you. I should have made this more clear, sorry.
You made it perfectly clear that the look is not for you, and that it breaks your immersion. That's fine. I wasn't accusing you of anything, but the general "train" of yes men that come after someone has made a comment such as this. Yours was well argumented and thought out, while most what follow tend to water themselves down to what i eventually wrote "she's a slut". Which isn't true.

As for the male Malkavian, i actually don't think it works as well as the female one. The female one just wears "sexy" clothing. That's actually doable, i've seen that. Not assless chaps, but close. The male malkavian however doesn't dress very immersively. No one that walks around like that gets talked to or does missions or whatever. Not in this world, not in WoD... So i fail to see how they would get around the world like that. Regardless, it kinda operates on the same level, but i just think the female version was done more normal (ironically), and would function in a world whereas a male version is just "look at me i'm insane wooo" type of thing which is totally not what malkavians are about. On the surface, yes, they are insane, but the point is that they're not showing it with their clothing, rather with their dialogue.

So again, sorry if you felt called out by my post, it wasn't meant for you, it was meant for the general falling quality of arguments that landed in the "she's a slut" territory while failing to provide anything of substance to the conversation.

It's ok it's not for you, i don't mind that, and don't really care, you made your argument, and that's fine. We don't have to agree with each other, that's the beauty of existance or whatever, everyone has opinions and tastes and you had arguments to support the conversation, i respect that, especially since it was on point.

But then generalisations follow and "oohh female characters are sexualized in media because [insert blame figure of the week here] amirite" without sticking to the source or context.

And i can come off a bit strong when it involves something i like. That's just how i am.

So TLDR; It's not you i have a problem with, you're always a delight to talk to in theese forums, even if we don't agree. It's the general devolving of quality in arguments and broadening of the specific discussion that sometimes gets me.

[ZoeSpatula]

Wow Vepar, ad hominem much? xD
Are you sure you should be complaining about the "devolving of quality in arguments" while expressing yourself in that way? That's more than just coming off a bit strong

[Vepar]

Origineel geplaatst door ZoeSpatula:

Are you sure you should be complaining about the "devolving of quality in arguments" while expressing yourself in that way? That's more than just coming off a bit strong

Yup! Because i was sticking closely to the topic - the female malkavian in the game - and providing arguments as to why i think what i think. So like it or not, i wasn't generalizing anything. So ad hominem or not, and coming off strong or not, you can read my post and see an argument about why i feel a certain way and what i think works or doesn't in universe.

[ZoeSpatula]

Actually, from your post I can see mostly emotional reactions. And while it's amusing to see such sparks flying all of a sudden (without any intention to start them), it's contradictory to your complaints against falling and devolving quality of arguments. In other words, name calling is both a lack of quality arguments and derailing from any given topic (unless the topic was proper communication in the first place).

Tell your what's, since you're concerned about sticking closely to the topic, I invite you to continue this discussion elsewhere, in a civilized manner. At any rate, I had something specific I'm mind when I posted my first comment to this thread, but didn't want waste to much space in going into details.

[malvex_pavak17]

Origineel geplaatst door Vepar:

I wasn't offended, especially not by you. I should have made this more clear, sorry.
You made it perfectly clear that the look is not for you, and that it breaks your immersion. That's fine. I wasn't accusing you of anything, but the general "train" of yes men that come after someone has made a comment such as this. Yours was well argumented and thought out, while most what follow tend to water themselves down to what i eventually wrote "she's a slut". Which isn't true.

As for the male Malkavian, i actually don't think it works as well as the female one. The female one just wears "sexy" clothing. That's actually doable, i've seen that. Not assless chaps, but close. The male malkavian however doesn't dress very immersively. No one that walks around like that gets talked to or does missions or whatever. Not in this world, not in WoD... So i fail to see how they would get around the world like that. Regardless, it kinda operates on the same level, but i just think the female version was done more normal (ironically), and would function in a world whereas a male version is just "look at me i'm insane wooo" type of thing which is totally not what malkavians are about. On the surface, yes, they are insane, but the point is that they're not showing it with their clothing, rather with their dialogue.

So again, sorry if you felt called out by my post, it wasn't meant for you, it was meant for the general falling quality of arguments that landed in the "she's a slut" territory while failing to provide anything of substance to the conversation.

It's ok it's not for you, i don't mind that, and don't really care, you made your argument, and that's fine. We don't have to agree with each other, that's the beauty of existance or whatever, everyone has opinions and tastes and you had arguments to support the conversation, i respect that, especially since it was on point.

But then generalisations follow and "oohh female characters are sexualized in media because [insert blame figure of the week here] amirite" without sticking to the source or context.

And i can come off a bit strong when it involves something i like. That's just how i am.

So TLDR; It's not you i have a problem with, you're always a delight to talk to in theese forums, even if we don't agree. It's the general devolving of quality in arguments and broadening of the specific discussion that sometimes gets me.

No problem, and thank you for replying. I am glad you were not referring to me, I guess I jumped the gun a bit but I posted several times on the topic so I thought there was good odds. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ My apologies for assuming the worst

Hmm, my take on the vanilla male Malkavian, given his dialog, is that he has problems figuring out what is socially acceptable in general along with the pop culture version of schizophrenia and prophetic, fourth wall breaking insights, so he basically throws on whatever clothes he finds that gets the job done like a Harry Potter wizard trying to pretend to be a muggle.

Honestly, I would be fine if only one of the female Malk's outfits were to be fetish clothes because I could see her being so delusional from all of her dialog that she couldn't really tell the difference, but all of them? Similarly, the shirtless outfit (though far less sexualized, or perhaps that is my sexual preference speaking thus finding him unappealing) of the male Malkavian is fine with me because it has a pair of goggles and pants, and I would be fine if he was wearing something more revealing but still completely divorced from social norms like swimming trunks, a neck tie and army boots (I don't think a speedo would fit, the audience is isn't ready for it by 2004 imo, and I suppose I am a bit too prudish to enjoy playing with such an outfit without a bit more, maybe an open, loudly and horribly designed Hawaiian print shirt along with the neck tie and boots?).

Edit: Sorry, forgot to address something, yes this would make the male Malkavian's unlife a special kind of hell, a better social life than the Nosferatu but still fairly horrible and I agree. But instead of seeing it as breaking immersion, I see it as being immersive. After all, most of the mortals you come across think you are 1) are on drugs 2) crazy and possibly also on drugs 3) some kind of guru that is immensely wise and knows the secrets of the universe, said secrets likely gained while being high on drugs and communing with the spirits or whatever.

Now, being on drugs doesn't turn you into what is shown in the game except in bad fiction, but it is a popular idea in the minds of people, an idea that most mortals latch on to and allows you to interact with mortals. Now, I absolutely think there should be penalties akin to what Nosferatu have in some situations, like the party at the Giovanni mansion, stealth and violence should be the viable options there or you get thrown out. If it works for the Nosferatu I don't see why a similar clan weakness couldn't be used for malkavians for the purposes of the game, after all, Gangrel have a similar but smaller weakness to frenzy that Brujah get, they just also get more powerful when they frenzy which is not the table top game's weakness but would mirror this. The Tremere also doesn't have the weakness they get in game and, well, you get the idea.

[Vepar]

Origineel geplaatst door ZoeSpatula:

Actually, from your post I can see mostly emotional reactions. And while it's amusing to see such sparks flying all of a sudden (without any intention to start them), it's contradictory to your complaints against falling and devolving quality of arguments. In other words, name calling is both a lack of quality arguments and derailing from any given topic (unless the topic was proper communication in the first place).

Tell your what's, since you're concerned about sticking closely to the topic, I invite you to continue this discussion elsewhere, in a civilized manner. At any rate, I had something specific I'm mind when I posted my first comment to this thread, but didn't want waste to much space in going into details.

And since when is emotion a crime or something that devalues an argument? Humans have emotions, sometimes it even shows. The point is, to provide arguments alongside that emotion. If you choose to disregard everything i said because i showed emotion, that's your prerogative, go nuts, but take a page from malvex_pavak17 book and read what's more important to the conversation. The arguments or me getting a little emotional over the thing i like or feel strongly about?

I'm not a robot and will never behave as such, so if sometimes i get a bit "emotional" when discussing something so be it. I didn't directly attack anyone in my post or call anyone out, which i later explained in detail, so you know, you do you, i'll do me, let's either talk or don't.

And if you do want to talk, or expand on what you wrote, do tell, that's what this is about! What specific thing did you have in mind with your post? Because it looked awfully general. So yes, i'm interested, join the conversation!

Origineel geplaatst door malvex_pavak17:

[
No problem, and thank you for replying. I am glad you were not referring to me, I guess I jumped the gun a bit but I posted several times on the topic so I thought there was good odds. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ My apologies for assuming the worst

Hmm, my take on the vanilla male Malkavian, given his dialog, is that he has problems figuring out what is socially acceptable in general along with the pop culture version of schizophrenia and prophetic, fourth wall breaking insights, so he basically throws on whatever clothes he finds that gets the job done like a Harry Potter wizard trying to pretend to be a muggle.

Honestly, I would be fine if only one of the female Malk's outfits were to be fetish clothes because I could see her being so delusional from all of her dialog that she couldn't really tell the difference, but all of them? Similarly, the shirtless outfit (though far less sexualized, or perhaps that is my sexual preference speaking thus finding him unappealing) of the male Malkavian is fine with me because it has a pair of goggles and pants, and I would be fine if he was wearing something more revealing but still completely divorced from social norms like swimming trunks, a neck tie and army boots (I don't think a speedo would fit, the audience is isn't ready for it by 2004 imo, and I suppose I am a bit too prudish to enjoy playing with such an outfit without a bit more, maybe an open, loudly and horribly designed Hawaiian print shirt along with the neck tie and boots?).

Edit: Sorry, forgot to address something, yes this would make the male Malkavian's unlife a special kind of hell, a better social life than the Nosferatu but still fairly horrible and I agree. But instead of seeing it as breaking immersion, I see it as being immersive. After all, most of the mortals you come across think you are 1) are on drugs 2) crazy and possibly also on drugs 3) some kind of guru that is immensely wise and knows the secrets of the universe, said secrets likely gained while being high on drugs and communing with the spirits or whatever.

Now, being on drugs doesn't turn you into what is shown in the game except in bad fiction, but it is a popular idea in the minds of people, an idea that most mortals latch on to and allows you to interact with mortals. Now, I absolutely think there should be penalties akin to what Nosferatu have in some situations, like the party at the Giovanni mansion, stealth and violence should be the viable options there or you get thrown out. If it works for the Nosferatu I don't see why a similar clan weakness couldn't be used for malkavians for the purposes of the game, after all, Gangrel have a similar but smaller weakness to frenzy that Brujah get, they just also get more powerful when they frenzy which is not the table top game's weakness but would mirror this. The Tremere also doesn't have the weakness they get in game and, well, you get the idea.

It's fine, i should have been more specific in my post anyway.

Interesting take on the male Malkavian. I never thought of it as such! The same logic can be applied to female malk too though, except she - in this scenario - seems a little more coherent and has a vague general idea what clothes go together.

About sexualization, i think that's in the eye of the beholder to an extent. Yes, the skimpy outfits and thongs on their armor is definitely meant to be sexy, but to what extent i wonder? And can anything be sexy or seen as such when you have a deeply troubled tragic, yet supernaturally prophetic mind behind that outfit? As you said, you don't find the male Malk sexualized because of your sexual preference, while someone who likes men (either gender) might find a shirtless buff guy pretty sexy. The Hawaiian shirt/speedo/combat boots - that needs to happen lol! Someone please mod that!

As for the female armors, except the second and third armor, i don't find them too fetishistic or anything. The cop and cowboy outfits are, but the first one looks like something you'd wear on a sunny day, while the combat armor actually looks like a useful piece of clothing to have. But still all fall into the same theme for me, a layer to look past, same with the male armor. I think - contrary to other clans - Malkavians are concerned less with appearances and more with their minds and personalities. With what's beyond. And they even have the supernatural ability to see what's beyond in other characters ("Why do you hide behind a fabric Susan?" and simmilar stuff).

I mean, just look at other clans for evidence. Every single one of them is designed according to what they represent. The Ventrue are all business like, Toreador are well dressed, etc. each has their clan "type" first shown as an aesthetic in how they look and dress. Malkavians on the other hand - at least the female one in my opinion - less so. While yes, being dressed like they are could be a sign of madness as a total disregard for social norms, neither of their clothing choices reflect insanity. There's nothing directly tying it to madness, sexy clothing isn't a sign of madness, nor is the fur coat and a silly hat and glasses. It's the context in which they wear them that's tied to it, not the clothing themselves. While, suits, designer clothes, "urban clothing" and what other clans wear, directly tries to mimic their clan's archetype.

Also - eye of the beholder thing - Nosferatu armor is beyond sexualized, it's all BDSM stuff, yet we don't precieve it as such because of how they look. No one wants to screw a nossie so no one argues BDSM leather is sexy on them. On the other hand, someone might see a well dressed man/woman (toreador) and think that's way sexier than showing off any skin.

Malkavian weakness in the game is generally non existent in gameplay terms. Well, maybe except for the first playthrough with them. But their weakness in the character sheet is just "Madness" and while that translates to hard to understand dialogue, that only effectively works once or twice. After a while, you know what you're talking about. So i agree, there should be some social downsides too. I mean, the male malkavian, as you said might look and talk like someone would assume he's on drugs, but if someone approached you in even the "normal" first or fourth female malk clothing and started spewing you don't know what from their mouths, most people would also assume she's tripping. Especially if it's the second and third armor (cowboy and cop).

Both genders clothing would make them a bit hard to socialize with, coupled with how they talk.

I wonder what they'll do with Malkavians in Bloodlines 2.