Is Nines a good character? [spoilers]

[Anderson]

A version proposed by a post I saw a while ago on a russian source proposed the view that Nines is actually another LaCroix - he's not a good guy.
The main argument is how he brags about himself doing this, being there, doing that. You're a Cammy and so on.
A cool response that Nines gives in the lone wolf against everyone ending is when you leave he says something like "We could use someone like you." Truth finally gets out maybe.

In a way as players, especially when first playing we can kind of sympathize with him. But is he really whom he wants to appear? Or we just have to keep in mind the Jyhad is still rolling?

Thoughts?

[midnite rule]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Anderson:

Actually the good ending would probably be the Camarilla one. LaCroix gets to be alive (I think), the world is stable, Sarcophagus with bomb never blows up and everyone's happy. Balance to the force is restored.

I doubt Strauss lets LaCroix live. He made a secret pact with the kuei-jin, killed a primogen and intended to engage in diablerie. I think his final death is pretty much guaranteed.

As for Nines, he strikes me as a guy that genuinely believes what he preaches. But good intentions are not enough to make one a good guy. Some of history’s greatest monsters believed themselves to be acting in a righteous way.

Having said that, I like Nines quite a bit and usually end up siding with him. Nines is such a great character, it’s easy for a writer to simply tell you that a character is charismatic in what TV Tropes refer to as an Informed Attribute[tvtropes.org]. But with Nines you can practically feel the charisma.

[Anderson]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von midnite rule:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Anderson:

Actually the good ending would probably be the Camarilla one. LaCroix gets to be alive (I think), the world is stable, Sarcophagus with bomb never blows up and everyone's happy. Balance to the force is restored.

I doubt Strauss lets LaCroix live. He made a secret pact with the kuei-jin, killed a primogen and intended to engage in diablerie. I think his final death is pretty much guaranteed.

It's never revealed for some reason who killed the primogen exactly. Was it Kuei-Jin or someone else on LaCroix's bidding? LaCroix may have as well put out the word for some Sabbat to storm the place, but then it would be weird for the majority of his ghouls being around unharmed, while others killed. Unless there's something not included in the original by the writer or devs left cut from the game.

[__-__-__]

The game has never left me with any doubt that Ming Xiao killed Grout because La'Croix asked her to. Ming Xiao practically confesses when she approaches the player character after the Hallowbrook hotel and makes herself look like Nines. She says it was part of the arrangement she and the prince made, the only thing that isn't really clear is what exactly the Kuei Jin got out of the arrangement.

[Anderson]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Sesh:

The game has never left me with any doubt that Ming Xiao killed Grout because La'Croix asked her to. Ming Xiao practically confesses when she approaches the player character after the Hallowbrook hotel and makes herself look like Nines. She says it was part of the arrangement she and the prince made, the only thing that isn't really clear is what exactly the Kuei Jin got out of the arrangement.

The arrangement in the way she phrases it was to frame the PC for killing Nines. But nothing beyond that. We may be lead to think that it is implied that she was also the assassin of Nines but... isn't that too far fetched when you think about it?

Here's the logic: if the Primogen went AWOL, chances are he could have been killed by anyone. Why would Ming Xiao stick around for that long there after doing it? Why would she return to frame the PC if she was the one who killed the Primogen, wouldn't it be better to frame Kuei Jin for it?
I don't understand this time gap between when the Primogen disappears and how the coincidence is arranged to have the PC framed. IMHO the murderer is someone else than Ming Xiao, moreover she looks scared or something after getting out. Chances are she didn't know Grout was dead when the arrangement was made. But who knows? Maybe bad writting. No guarantee that Brian Mitsoda has godlike providence.

[midnite rule]

LaCroix sends you to Grout’s mansion because he needs your testimony to frame Nines. This means that when he sends you there he knows Grout is either dead or soon will be. So, even if it wasn’t Ming who killed him, whoever did was acting on LaCroix’s orders.

And Grout’s initial disappearance wasn’t because he died, he withdrew from vampire society because the voices in his head warned him of LaCroix’s plans.

I know there’s a theory Grout faked his death and skeleton on the bed isn’t really him. But I don’t think this was the writers’ intention.

[Wesp5]

As already has been said, not the PC is framed but Nines, the PC is only the witness! It makes perfect sense for Ming to wait until the PC is around to have a more or less neutral witness that Nines killed Grout. As she worked with LaCroix she knew the PC was coming as well! Last not least she had much better chances to kill Grout in the first place as Grout was already paranoid towards his fellow vampires, but Ming could have entered shapeshifted as someone else or even Nines, if Grout still trusted him, and thus could have easliy come near him where others might have failed. Maybe when being shapeshifted Grout's voices would be confused too about her...

[Anderson]

Yeah sorry I confused who framed whom in the way it was written.

As mentioned then it leaves us with not knowing if it's Grout's skeleton. But the likelihood of that is reduced.

[Wesp5]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Anderson:

As mentioned then it leaves us with not knowing if it's Grout's skeleton.

I'll go with Occams Razor on this: The quest log says you saw Grout's remains and Ming basically confesses that she killed him when you meet her outside the Hallowbrook Hotel. Q.E.D.

[Anderson]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von wesp5:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Anderson:

As mentioned then it leaves us with not knowing if it's Grout's skeleton.

I'll go with Occams Razor on this: The quest log says you saw Grout's remains and Ming basically confesses that she killed him when you meet her outside the Hallowbrook Hotel. Q.E.D.

Yeah, there's probably no deep hidden meaning in that part either. It's just more about how enigmatic and mysterious the whole Grout mansion is.

[TOG | Fulgrim]

The Anarch way made the most sense to me, on account of the Camarilla being set up only to favour those at the top of their organisation, everything paid for by the underlings. The Anarchs didn't put on airs as to how they're "Guiding Kindred according to the Masquerade" while pushing their own agendas. They just got on with their un-lives, looked out for each other and didn't make a big fuss.

To be fair, this did make them vulnerable to any large group ambitious and ruthless enough to see them as a threat, but at the end of the day, they were the only ones who didn't have a mad-on to gain more power and take over the world, and for that alone they were the ONLY ones worth supporting.

[naru]

Communism is to give all the power to the government, which in turn will distribute food and wealth evenly among the citizens.

The Anarchs are hence the name anarchists. They want "no gods, no masters" where everyone rules themselves.
The Anarchs follow Nines, but he is faithful to his principles and leads because people follow him, but he does not enforce any sort of authority. They are free to leave him.

The "we could use someone like you" was obviously just a figure of speech and nothing more.