Saving system for normal people

[BrUwU]

I like the depth of the game. I love everything about it. Except repetative design of "you make a mistake go replay early game once again". We are not living in NES time, where 2 hour game had to be stretched into 20+hours experience to justify the purchase. Is there a way to turn on a "normal" saving system? So i can play and experiment with the game, rather play extremely cautiously to not waste my time on replaying same early game stages over and over again.
EDIT: for giga brains, i know about lives, i were 10hrs into the run and run out of them. Guess what it either normal saving or hell no i have something better to do with my life than raplaying same thing just to get to the point i already reached. And it is EXTREMELY boring to replay, because i solved trollmire by this point, its not even a chore at this point, it just a time waste.

[Moasseman]

There are 3 "permadeath" settings: Roguelike (1 life, you die you die), Adventure (few lives, with an extra one given at several level breakpoints) and Exploration (Infinite lives. Only way to die for real is to tell the Eidolon you "give up" after dying)

[BrUwU]

Originally posted by Moasseman:

There are 3 "permadeath" settings: Roguelike (1 life, you die you die), Adventure (few lives, with an extra one given at several level breakpoints) and Exploration (Infinite lives. Only way to die for real is to tell the Eidolon you "give up" after dying)

Can we get saving system like in those terrible poorly designed awfull games like Baldurs Gate, Divinity OS, Fallout, Underrail.... I don't want to corpse rush bosses slowly chipping away their HP bar. If i die, i want to replay fights.

[Moasseman]

Ah you mean not needing to save on exit/on death I see.

As far as I know, that's not an option and I don't know of any addons that'd make it one (which is relatively odd, as it shouldn't be an overtly complex addon)

[TheWashableBomb]

Today I learned I'm not a normal person because I like TOME's system.

[zoutzakje]

Even Trollmire can spawn some interesting things from time to time. A Hedgy here, a Gunsnake there. A Thunderer or Patchwork Troll in Bill's room. Even replaying the same thing over and over, the run will always be a little different. This game is all about finding variety in repetition.
I recommend playing Adventure mode (several lives) and really focus on trying to stay alive. Get escape options such as a movespeed infusion. Don't try to kill everything (because you don't have to).
Oh, and you can skip zones entirely. Got bored of Trollmire? Cool, there's 5 other Tier 1 zones to clear (each with a possible alternate layout). Or maybe you do 1 or 2 of them and feel like you can go straight to the Maze. There's a lot of freedom when determining your zone order (quests can be ignored).

[BrUwU]

Originally posted by zoutzakje:

Even Trollmire can spawn some interesting things from time to time. A Hedgy here, a Gunsnake there. A Thunderer or Patchwork Troll in Bill's room. Even replaying the same thing over and over, the run will always be a little different. This game is all about finding variety in repetition.

Wow impressive an amaizing feature if i want to replay the game when i'm done with one of me character... Oh wait i'll have to see those changes 1 quadrillion times because i'll have to replay same areas every time i make a mistake.

Originally posted by zoutzakje:

I recommend playing Adventure mode (several lives) and really focus on trying to stay alive. Get escape options such as a movespeed infusion. Don't try to kill everything (because you don't have to).

Yeah don't experiment. Don't play the game you want to play. Play it always the same way, safe and using the same overly safe strategy. Because you know that is fun!

Originally posted by zoutzakje:

Oh, and you can skip zones entirely. Got bored of Trollmire? Cool, there's 5 other Tier 1 zones to clear (each with a possible alternate layout). Or maybe you do 1 or 2 of them and feel like you can go straight to the Maze. There's a lot of freedom when determining your zone order (quests can be ignored).

And risk being underleveled and underequipped so when you inevetibly die you have to replay them again? Oh don't worry i can skip them, and if i die i can just load my previous save and go clear the lower tier areas to catch up... Oh wait... ♥♥♥♥.

[Grishnerf]

well seems like roguelikes arent your thing.
savescumming to victory is not what this games are about.
you have to learn of your failures, not bruteforce your victory through save&reload
100 times, then beating a level with "luck" and not improving one bit.
this game is all about knowledge and experience.
if you repeat the same level 100 times and still die, then thats your fault of not thinking on how to improve.
also every run is always different, through items, special monsters etc..
sometimes you get epic loot early, sometimes no loot at all, you have to play aroud that.
also knowing what monster/class combos can do and avoid/negate that etc,
the game is very deep, and even with reloading states you will not beat the game in later stages if you cant improve yourself.

[BrUwU]

Originally posted by Grishnerf:

well seems like roguelikes arent your thing.

Yes.

Originally posted by Grishnerf:

savescumming to victory is not what this games are about.
you have to learn of your failures, not bruteforce your victory through save&reload
100 times, then beating a level with "luck" and not improving one bit.

Tell that to anyone who is really good at any game with normal save systems. You know those people who save scummed their way into top leaderboards of Quake speedrunning. Or playing games like Baldurs gate well...
No one will be impressed by your save scumming skills. But save scumming actually let you experiment and try out in controlled and save enviroment.
I want to try this combination of skills, but it doesn't sounds they will work together well, drop the save, try it, if it doesn't work, wtv load your save you lost like an hour. Meanwhile here? I'm scared of experimenting with anything, because i know if it doesn't work, i'm losing like 5+hour of my life on this character, welcome back to trollmire again you ♥♥♥♥♥.

Originally posted by Grishnerf:

this game is all about knowledge and experience.

You mean as any other games?

Originally posted by Grishnerf:

if you repeat the same level 100 times and still die, then thats your fault of not thinking on how to improve.

Sure but the point is, if i fail in normal game, i can load and try again, if i fail here, i have to run back to the same point for 2+ hours from the very beggining of the game, through areas i already long time solved and they pose really 0 danger to me at this point.

Originally posted by Grishnerf:

also every run is always different, through items, special monsters etc..
sometimes you get epic loot early, sometimes no loot at all, you have to play aroud that.
also knowing what monster/class combos can do and avoid/negate that etc,

AKA it is fun until you solve it. I can pick ANY class combo and complete entirety of low level areas with my eyes closed by this point. Because it is solved issue, but dying at mid or late game, and i have to AGAIN do them.

Originally posted by Grishnerf:

the game is very deep, and even with reloading states you will not beat the game in later stages if you cant improve yourself.

Yeah that would be cool, if i can at enter the areas about which i have no prior knowledge, just no problem drop the save, enter the dungeon, mobs are too high level? Or you enter and see things you have no option to deal with yet(resistances), just load and come back when you ready... Instead of enter, die to ♥♥♥♥ you have no idea how works, lose all your lives and congratulation you won the chance to play the god ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ DAMMIT TROLLMIRE AGAIN FFS.

[voronin_mike]

It's a roguelike, it was written so on the Steam page. If you don't want to play the genre, then don't buy such games. Simple.
Honestly, youth these days... %))

[Tuskai]

Dial back the caustic attitude, you don't sound like you're levying valid criticism against an unfair game, you sound like a toddler crying over the game not being easy enough for you.

You can undo the last few skill points you've spent at any town. That's plenty of opportunity to experiment with skills to feel out how they work. You also haven't told us what Race/Class you are playing, and what skills you're focusing on. If you did, people could tell you what you're doing wrong.

You're also looking at the game terribly. You're looking at it like its distinct levels, like you're playing a shooter, where you load into the Maze, and you're just trying to clear the maze. Your character and build is a distinct, continuous growth. You haven't "Solved' the early game, because there isn't an early game, its the beginning, and if you're failing in the mid or late game, its because you failed in the early game without realizing it. Maybe you're spreading your build out too thin, maybe you're neglecting to take important defensive skills while the game is "Easy" and doesn't require them, maybe you're not picking gear that'll give you resistances that you need.

The game gives you plenty of tools to judge the difficulty of an area the moment you step into it, it tells you the level range before you enter, the message at the start of every floor is an indicator of the general difficulty, and you can always right click on individual enemies to see all their stats and talents.

Like others have said, Roguelikes aren't your thing, and that's fine, but this is a roguelike, it appeals to people who enjoy Roguelikes, and if you don't enjoy planning your build out 20 hours in advance, failing, then refining the build to try again, then there isn't much else to tell you. Either develop a tolerance for failure, or go play a game you actually want to play.

[BrUwU]

Originally posted by Tuskai:

Dial back the caustic attitude, you don't sound like you're levying valid criticism against an unfair game, you sound like a toddler crying over the game not being easy enough for you.

Where have i said anything about game being unfair or too hard? Can you please quote me? Because everywhere i say that its just an idiotic design to have to replay early game.

Originally posted by Tuskai:

You can undo the last few skill points you've spent at any town. That's plenty of opportunity to experiment with skills to feel out how they work.

Yeah let me refund talants from level 1-5 when i'm finally picking up a talant i thought would synergies well which i picked up on level 25. Even with trying to maintain refunded points its not possible all the time. Why do i know about this game more than you are?

Originally posted by Tuskai:

You also haven't told us what Race/Class you are playing, and what skills you're focusing on. If you did, people could tell you what you're doing wrong.

Do i need to tell you all like 20-30 runs i had? Want an excel spreadsheet? Do i need to write a detailed report to be able to criticize idiotic design of "roguelikes"?

Originally posted by Tuskai:

You're also looking at the game terribly. You're looking at it like its distinct levels, like you're playing a shooter, where you load into the Maze, and you're just trying to clear the maze.

Do i? And when i know i can't kill boss at the end of trollmire, i bail out, is that what? Me cheating? I type idclev and cheat to a different area, because i know i don't have tools to deal with him yet. Or is it me understanding early game too much.

Originally posted by Tuskai:

Your character and build is a distinct, continuous growth. You haven't "Solved' the early game, because there isn't an early game, its the beginning, and if you're failing in the mid or late game, its because you failed in the early game without realizing it. Maybe you're spreading your build out too thin, maybe you're neglecting to take important defensive skills while the game is "Easy" and doesn't require them, maybe you're not picking gear that'll give you resistances that you need.

Or maybe to its much more better game design to let people experiment in a decently safe enviroment rather than forcing them to replay same easy areas they already completed 100th times.
What an amaizing game design. You don't know that you need stun resistance? You die, go replay last 2 hours, you don't know you need X resistance for this area? You die go replay last 3 hours. Congratulation you moved to next tier, you don't know how this area works? You die go replay last 4 hours. After dying and replaying for 20th time congratulation you won through sheer percevirance, and wasting 50hours of you life.
Or just don't play a game and look up the build guide, but at this point why just no watch a lets play.

Originally posted by Tuskai:

The game gives you plenty of tools to judge the difficulty of an area the moment you step into it, it tells you the level range before you enter, the message at the start of every floor is an indicator of the general difficulty,

Yes amaizing, vague words, and level means barely anything, i can often punch above my heard or get destroyed in some area way below my level.

Originally posted by Tuskai:

and you can always right click on individual enemies to see all their stats and talents.

Yes you click and it gives you... 170 of who gives a ♥♥♥♥ and 130 of damn that hot. Okay let me drop a save and see what those numbers mean when collide with my numbers.... Ohh... Yeah... About that. You died welcome back to trollmire.

Originally posted by Tuskai:

Like others have said, Roguelikes aren't your thing, and that's fine, but this is a roguelike, it appeals to people who enjoy Roguelikes, and if you don't enjoy planning your build out 20 hours in advance, failing, then refining the build to try again, then there isn't much else to tell you. Either develop a tolerance for failure, or go play a game you actually want to play.

Doesn't stop me to be critical of the genre.
This game is a clearest example to me. That you can take an amaizing game, and turn it into garbage by making it into roguelike.

[ArchaicReaper]

Play Exploration mode so you have infinite lives. It's the same difference as save/reload on death. You pop right back in to where you died or you can bail on the level entirely and enter clear. Everything you killed stays dead and loot stays looted.

It's fine if you don't like roguelikes, everyone has preferences. Maybe you'd like roguelites, maybe even they don't feel fun for you. Either way it's okay. But you can't come in here and say "this roguelike should be less roguelike." You won't get anywhere. It's like walking into a shooter game and saying "this needs crafting."

[Erikkustrife]

Originally posted by Ohm:

Originally posted by Tuskai:

Dial back the caustic attitude, you don't sound like you're levying valid criticism against an unfair game, you sound like a toddler crying over the game not being easy enough for you.

Where have i said anything about game being unfair or too hard? Can you please quote me? Because everywhere i say that its just an idiotic design to have to replay early game.

Originally posted by Tuskai:

You can undo the last few skill points you've spent at any town. That's plenty of opportunity to experiment with skills to feel out how they work.

Yeah let me refund talants from level 1-5 when i'm finally picking up a talant i thought would synergies well which i picked up on level 25. Even with trying to maintain refunded points its not possible all the time. Why do i know about this game more than you are?

Originally posted by Tuskai:

You also haven't told us what Race/Class you are playing, and what skills you're focusing on. If you did, people could tell you what you're doing wrong.

Do i need to tell you all like 20-30 runs i had? Want an excel spreadsheet? Do i need to write a detailed report to be able to criticize idiotic design of "roguelikes"?

Originally posted by Tuskai:

You're also looking at the game terribly. You're looking at it like its distinct levels, like you're playing a shooter, where you load into the Maze, and you're just trying to clear the maze.

Do i? And when i know i can't kill boss at the end of trollmire, i bail out, is that what? Me cheating? I type idclev and cheat to a different area, because i know i don't have tools to deal with him yet. Or is it me understanding early game too much.

Originally posted by Tuskai:

Your character and build is a distinct, continuous growth. You haven't "Solved' the early game, because there isn't an early game, its the beginning, and if you're failing in the mid or late game, its because you failed in the early game without realizing it. Maybe you're spreading your build out too thin, maybe you're neglecting to take important defensive skills while the game is "Easy" and doesn't require them, maybe you're not picking gear that'll give you resistances that you need.

Or maybe to its much more better game design to let people experiment in a decently safe enviroment rather than forcing them to replay same easy areas they already completed 100th times.
What an amaizing game design. You don't know that you need stun resistance? You die, go replay last 2 hours, you don't know you need X resistance for this area? You die go replay last 3 hours. Congratulation you moved to next tier, you don't know how this area works? You die go replay last 4 hours. After dying and replaying for 20th time congratulation you won through sheer percevirance, and wasting 50hours of you life.
Or just don't play a game and look up the build guide, but at this point why just no watch a lets play.

Originally posted by Tuskai:

The game gives you plenty of tools to judge the difficulty of an area the moment you step into it, it tells you the level range before you enter, the message at the start of every floor is an indicator of the general difficulty,

Yes amaizing, vague words, and level means barely anything, i can often punch above my heard or get destroyed in some area way below my level.

Originally posted by Tuskai:

and you can always right click on individual enemies to see all their stats and talents.

Yes you click and it gives you... 170 of who gives a ♥♥♥♥ and 130 of damn that hot. Okay let me drop a save and see what those numbers mean when collide with my numbers.... Ohh... Yeah... About that. You died welcome back to trollmire.

Originally posted by Tuskai:

Like others have said, Roguelikes aren't your thing, and that's fine, but this is a roguelike, it appeals to people who enjoy Roguelikes, and if you don't enjoy planning your build out 20 hours in advance, failing, then refining the build to try again, then there isn't much else to tell you. Either develop a tolerance for failure, or go play a game you actually want to play.

Doesn't stop me to be critical of the genre.
This game is a clearest example to me. That you can take an amaizing game, and turn it into garbage by making it into roguelike.

All of your complaints can be summed up with, "I dont want to play adventure mode and its your problem not mine."

[Kiru]

Maybe this game is not for you. Thats a pity because its a very good game but there is no more need to debate that than to complain at a chinese waiter why he cant serve italian food that you would prefer to eat. The chop suey wont become a pizza. If thats a dealbreaker for you, go somewhere else.

Why do people feel they need to make public rants on everything that is not to their tastes?

And if you already decided this game is wasting your time why do you feel the need to waste even more time arguing with strangers why they are wrong to like what you dont?

Dont you have any friends to bother with your opinions instead? You know, if you absolutely feel you have to tell someone about that game that you found so terribly wasteful of your time after spending 20 hours on it when other people are counting their experience in the thousands. ;)

[Endy73]

The Exploration mode = unlimited lives=normal save system without the constant Load/Save jerking, the Arena = quick charachter progression to experiment with abilites on a faster pace, the Infinite Dungeon = your common fellow dungeon crawler with unrepeatable level design (sort of) and infinite depth. The save scamming, if you wish to get beyond the game rules bounds. We have absolutely covered the topic, in my opinion. Just make your choice and enjoy, The thrill of the potential losing that what makes the game so awesome.