Anyone beat this game with a pure Summoner? (Nightmare +)

[ZeroAffex]

So today I felt like doing something whacky and decided to roll a Dwarf Summoner on Nightmare Roguelike. I was just curious to know if anyone has beat this game using a summoner on anything above normal? lol

Honestly, DarkGod desperately needs to buff/change this class because I think most agree it's bad, like really bad. Even on te4.org, it's probably the class with the least "W's" attached to it and no one recently has beat the game with one which is why I've decided to attempt the impossible xD

Just wondering if anyone else has or is planning on attempting a Summoner win? If so, any tips would help. There's a dated anime summoner guide that I tried back in 2016 and found that it didn't work for me outside of normal.

For my current summoner, I was going to focus on str>wil>dex>con, wear massive armor and rock a Dethbyrd or something lol In the past I tried going traditional, mindstars, light/medium armor and just got steamrolled. So this time I am thinking of building basically a Gladiator Druid that can whack stuff while his creatures blow stuff up. It's my first attempt at this so chances are it's a bad idea and I will fail.

Anyways, let me know what you think and feel free to share any tips/tricks/previous winners.

[zoutzakje]

I know some of the better players can beat summoner on insane rl just fine, but I'm not one of those players :D
If I somehow make it to lvl 10, the randbosses will get me.
Having said that, I would not try too much funky stuff with summoner and just try to play it as I believe it's intended.
All your talents are summon based, nothing for melee. So you'd be a crappy bumper with crappy summons if you go that route imo lol. No cunning investment would also mean you'd never have more than 1 summon (unless you intend to find tons of cun on gear).
The point of summoner is to try to never enter combat yourself, let your summons do all the work. Even when you get psiblades and start dealing decent bump damage eventually, still don't enter combat yourself unless you have no other choice.
Focus on your creatures, learn how to position them strategically, and that SHOULD lead to victory. I'm just rather terrible at it myself lol.

[doingwork]

I got to lvl 40 as a summoner on insane roguelike and was steamrolling pretty good. It was tough and slow in the early, had to be really careful. I got lucky and got the Caller mindstar as well.

As to playstyle: antimagic and tanky for yourself, spam all your points into summons. Cornac is extremely helpful due to the extra cat point early on to get Augmentation ASAP and be able to get Fungus with your lvl 20 point. Detonate on Hydra can simplify certain types of enemies for example. I hardly ever attacked anything myself past like lvl 10. Positioning is a big deal for yourself and your summons. The Fire dragon hard-carries since its AoE shot can clear whole rooms. Spam that first in fights unless you need turtle to tank for you.

Once you get Grand Arrival at 14, you can start playing with "combos" as I call them. Like dropping a warhound in the midst of enemies to drop their phys resist, then dropping the fire drake who will AoE shout (phys dmg) and wipe rooms.

I ran into... I don't even know what, in one of the prides. All I know is that it was a solipisist unique that had like lvl 70 to all of their skills, like it was immortal and perma-slept me as it murdered me. I'm not sure many classes would have had a chance. I had it in the bag for a win basically if not for that insane enemy I ran into.

Still, its very doable to do on Nightmare for sure, even on Insane although its a bit slow going. IMO its a stronger class than a few I could name, like Bulwark or Reaver.

[Moasseman]

Summoner is nice, but if you're ignoring Cun and going for a melee build with no melee talents, I can see why you'd plop over when the nasties arrive.

Personally I ran a Rimebark-focused build, keeping everything frozen was a nice layer of safety on top of having a ton of fodder on the field

[ZeroAffex]

Haha okay well I am going to scrap my original idea of going melee fighter/summoner. I've probably made a dozen or more going the traditional route and highest level I got to was in the 30's getting wasted around deadfell or urkis (which I save until the end of 1st half). I just thought I'd try something unconventional this time around because my previous attempts never worked.

Seems that the best way to play summoner is the way I have been (mindstars, focus on wp/cun, light/medium armor, ect). I probably just need to focus more on positioning Zout said (cool to see the legend still active in these parts $) and learning combos/synergies. I admit I didn't get to the latter because I typically die out before I can even begin to unlock the potential of that class. I've written it off many times as impossible to beat the game with (similar to a pure creature necro lol) but it gives me some inspiration to keep at it and that it's maybe not as bad a class as I originally thought. Still numbers do paint a rather ominous picture in terms of winners go on te4.org lol Seems its just a difficult class but that's good, gives me something to work towards :D

Good tips though all around. Learned a lot and have a better mindset on how to approach this class. Doingwork gave me some things to try out like anti-magic that I didn't think of along with going cornac for extra points early on. Moasseman brought up a good idea about using Rime's to perma-freeze things. I usually skip over using Rime that much in favor of the powerhouses like drakes/minotaurs instead. Typically I would just pump points into the creatures that did the most damage but I realize I need to think outside the box for this. But yea, lots of good stuff here to try.

Anyways, thanks for all the replies! If you guys or anyone else think of more to add whether general summoning tips, builds, strategies or whatever feel free! Can never have enough information, especially for a niche class such as this. It's the newcomer's class that we realize sucks and never touch again. Not only can this thread help me, but maybe others new and old attempting a summoner run. If by chance I win, I'll for sure upload my build/character here for others to view. Wish me luck! :D Cheers.

[Rainynight]

Insane RL 1.5.10 yeek winner
cun-str-will, PES ICCTW, focus on spamming melee pets while range do all work
Item prior: fire dmg/pen > activ. items > def > phys dmg/pen

I'll write a few lines about the class, but atm i'm lazy to make them looks pretty. Also, my english is pretty bEd, so...
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Bear in mind that in 1.6 was massive game re-balance. For summoner there a few important moments:
1) enemy AI was changed: now, u can't block their path by simple putting pets in 1 tile corridors (enemy will run across all map instead to wait when the path will be clear). Summoner still can abuse their stupid AI, but now we need to do it by another way.
2) you can't buy t3 items and torque in early game anymore(torques is pretty usefull for summoner, i'll talk about later).
3) parasitic ego (life steal build) was removed from the game.

There many other moments (talent including) but they have no real impact, and the game in 1.7.x patch will be +- the same as before.
___
Also: summoner is the best class for new players, also for players who wanna improve their skill. Not because summoner is super easy, or super broken (play Paradox Mage if u wanna both), no. The reason why it's so good for new players it's because summoner has no real control or protection, has no mobility at all, and last - summoner do nothing in combat but calling his pets into the battle. He/she don't need to worry about dealing dmg at all!

Summoner has an absurd amount of free time in combat AND near to nothing to do with that! And player must to LEARN what to do after he called hes pets (and before they'll disspaear/die, which will allows to call a new one).
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Summoner, imo, had one of easiest early game in the game (even easier than lightning archmageg): the reason - Ritch Flamespitter. This little squishy ♥♥♥♥ have high dmg-per-turn without animations, which means enemie can't jsut run away.

***There many builds for summoner, but i'll focus only in one: range-type pets. Bear that in mind please!***
Why this one? Because it's easy to play but at the same time it's more about tactic, which i love.
So, since this, we'll max our Flamespitter, Hydra, Rimebark and later - Fire drake. Also jelly: this little ♥♥♥♥ is important pet in any build, but u don't need to max it ASAP.
___

Now, as i said before, we have free time when we summoned our first pet - quick tip: every 10 cun will add +1 to max number of wild-summons, - What should we do with that?
In early game: nothing. You can even hold th resp button - Flamespitter will kill everything before they can reach u (and even the guys witch Rush will die before they can kill us). If there a pack of enemies, then we probable should make a few steps bacl: Flamespitter has high dmg-per-turn, but can't kill everthing at once.

But i recommend u to avoid "do nothing": if u don't have a maximum pets already - summon somthing (actually, it's a trickey part: i pref to play around MaxNumberOfPets minus one, so there always will be a chance to summon a new one, but u'll catch that in time, so don't worry about it, Learn to have maximum possible number of pets 24/7).
In early game this will be super easy, because of low cunning, but then it will be a bit harder: which one to summon? where it can be placed? AH, ♥♥♥♥! ANOTHER EQUILIBRIUM FAIL!!11
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Which pet should be summonet next? That's totaly depends of situation :D Let's skip this part for now...
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Where i should to place my pets? That's totaly depends of... W/e
The general rule - you should place your distance-pets away from the main battle field: they must be somewhere near (to get a chance for attack) but at the same time away from any Cleave attacks/Rush abilities/hard AoE. With that tactic they will stay max possible time >> they will deal more dmg.
In current build our melee pets it's nothing but meat: whatever melee pet we are talking - it's just meat... all, but jelly. Jelly is important, but about this littly ♥♥♥♥ later.
First: melee pets must be placed between u and enemies, if possible in one line.
x - empty space
H - hydra
M - melee pet
E - enemy
R - Ritch Flamespitter
@ - player

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xxxxxxHxxxxx
@xxxMxxxExx
xxRxxxxxxxxx
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This is best situation with 3 pets: melee pet will block any charge mechanics (but not teleport!), and with high chance will face the enemy. Both distance pets will attack without moving - hydra will attack the enemy at first turn, but then probably will stop because melee pet will make a step towards the enemy and wil lbe in hydra's attack radius, so hydra will make a step towards the enemy too. But Flamespitter will attack from distance all the fight.
Enemy can't attack us, because our pets is like a shiled-wall, even if it wanna do this, it should moving around this pets (and they will deal tons of dmg).

But fights in open space is obv for everyone who have a brain. What about corridors?

It's a tricky part after 1.6:
x - empty space
# - walls
E - enemy
@ - player

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x@xxxxxxxExx
##########

This is worst possible situation for us: we can't place a pet between us n enemy, because of their AI they will run around all the map (yeah, they "think" it's better to make over 40 steps than wait somewhere til pet will disapear and/or kill it)
Usually, you really wanna to avoid thisuations like this, because while enemy will run across the map he'll "call" other for help. And then there wil lbe a few more enemies, which will run towards u from two side at once. So, we can't just put a pet between us n enemy, but only if our pet can't "hold" the enemy in one place / we sure that enemy will attack us even with pet in line of sigh / this one enemy can Rush/fast-run towards us and deal high dmg (say hello to cursed/sawbutchers/mindslayers) / our enemy one of high-base-range-attack (archer/gunslinger/skirmisher). These situations are unique, so we probably wanna summon somthing there.

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##@xxxxExx
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Pretty similar, but different situation.
Well first - if u are there, then u are an idiot (or was teleproted): there a few classes in the game which really WANNA fight like this... Sadly, summoner don't wanna. You need to avoid this situations because withoud teleport/Jump mechanics u can't leave this place and summoner's tool-set have nothing to survive there.
Good moment - we can place pets between us and enemy and they (enemy, not a pets) won't run away (because there no other way to get us, lol). So, feel free to call them there.

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ooxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ox@########
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We was exploring and found an enemy. If it's a range, then simple make a step back (down in picture) to avoid hes line of sigh and then put a distance pet on "o": with that they will attack each other.

We can use these place:
########E###
xxxxooxxxxxx111
xx@########1
xxxxxxx11111111
xxxx########
but with that will block one path towards us... but there a tricky part: if enemy didn't see us AND our turn will be first, then putting a pet there ("o" tiles) will make them to be a main target fo enemy, whatever it is (range or melee). But if he saw us already and/or our turn will be second (speed differences), then enemy will probably use "1111" path to get us (melee enemy will use it 100%).

In other words - try to not block the path. Also, in current example, we can make enemy to see us, and then move down, where we'll get an open space to fight: yes, that will take some time (around 5-25turns depends of many factors, and even more if enemy AI will be stupid AF), but there we'll get more options to fight.

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Some our pets have a special AoE abilities: there a few AI-scripts for them when/how they can use it, but it's bad writen so here a general rule: if summoner's pets has an AoE attack/debuff, always think about it as an ENEMY AoE/buff!!!

With that in mind, we can use our Rimbark (or just Tree for future), FIre Drake (aka Drake), Hydra and Minotaur (aka meat).
Again: general rule - do not block the path towards us. Block line of sigh - to prevent get hit by projectiles/Rush, but not the path towards us. Also, now we must count a tiles because all these pet can (will lol) hurt us. Tree can stun (freeze) us, Drake n Hydra can oneshot us (not joking: Drake can oneshot even vs heroism/shield sometimes, and especially in late game), minotaur can confuse.
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Same example:

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xx@########
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But now, we have a more interestng option: make enemy engage to combat with us, then make a few steps down. Depends of enemy wait a few turns and make something like that:

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Rxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxT########
xxxxjxxxxxxxxx
x@x########

Ritch Flamespitter will die after 2-3 turns (depends of Tree's power), but before that it can hit an enemy a few times.
Tree will hurn (and potentially freeze) and enemies like in TowerDefense games.
The most interesting part of this exmaple - it's littly Jelly: this pet making two things at once. First, it blocking "1111" path for enemies (now, they must move near our tree),. Second, our jelly will be hurt by Tree, which means we'll reduce our equilibrium!!
***THIS IS IMPORTANT PART***
Tree+Jelly combo - is the best way to keep our EQ at 0% during ALL the fight. In mid-late game u'll be able to keep jelly alive... just to be suffer. Sad, but true: we need this poor jelly just because of equilibruim.

Actually, in mid-late game this jelly will be our main tank-source (yeap, ♥♥♥♥ the turtle): it doesn't matter which was source of dmg. If u are sure, that enemy will not run across all map towards u, then u can put a jelly near him and let them fight (yeah, jelly will ♥♥♥♥♥-slap them back).
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Now we have can make a step back: which pet should i first next? As i said, that depends of situationm but now we have options: melee pets usually need to be in battlefield not for dmg, but for blocking sigh/attack/movement lines.
Jelly have a tricky part about EQ.
Tree will stand on one palce whatever happes and will hurt everything around.
Hydra will attack in cone in front of it, but will try to not hurt hes friends (still will lol), and because of that will always make a few useless steps towards the enemies (potentially blocking the path).
Flamespitter will never hurt the friends, but still will be runing around the battlefield like an idiot if he can't hit the enemy IMMEDIATELY (so, it can block the path too).
Melee pets more predictable: they have no brains, they wanna smasch the things - remember about it when u calling them in fight.

Enemy can't oneshot us/can't run towards us? Start from distance pets (long-medium-melee). Then put a jelly somewhere for EQ management, then meat.
Enemy have debuffs which u don't like or hard nukes? Put something close to him as a sacrifice (or jelly), then start placing DPS-based summons, then meat.
Enemy is a dangerous? Then dps-based pets must wait: be sure to block yourself from attacks - don't forget about path-blocking - then make some "chaos" by calling a few meat-pets. When enemy will be look buys - call an artillery.

The hardest, but interesting part - it's a melee enemies. The problem with them that we don't have any natural protection against them, have no ways to break the distance with them. In other word: if they will be in melee with us - we're in trouble.
The interesting part about them, is that most of our pets (actually - all, but one) it's a melee-radius-based pets, so we have tons of options how to deal with them.

There also a laziest way to deal with them - spamming hydra/drake/Tree and whatever meat-pets u have in their face and make back-steps every free turn.
Pros:
There will be pure chaos for enemies, it's really hard to catch u without unique aibilities (works on Madness too).
There will be tons of passive healing from "heal all firends by X after casting a wild pet" if u have these bonuses.
Non-brain gameplay: use whatever u wanna (don't forget about jelly tho - keep EQ as low as possible). In mid-late game u can also ignor the "blocking-the-path" part (it's hard to explain why, just trust me).
Cons:
pets will die alot because t (they was not designed to survive long enough after non-brain placing them in the middle of fight. It's fact).
DPS-based pets will deal much less damage (but that's depends. Stacking high fire/cold/phys dmg will make a miracle!).
you'll get hard time if someone will teleport u into this chaos (i'm pretty sure u'll die there)
you'll get hard time if someone will be teleported towards u (i'm pretty sure u'll die here)
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That's was unsorted thoughts about when/where put the place and also EQ thing.

Now let's talk about something usefull (lol).



Summoner's DMG bonuses will affect pets. Which means +%fire/phys (sometimes cold n poison) is usefull for us too, and we wanna stack them like any other element-based class.

Max summons number depends of cunning (and few more other stats, but it's not important here): +1 pet slot per 10 cunning. Somewhere in 130-170cuning this rule works a bit strange... So, keep cheking the real number when u'll be in 100+ cun.
With that, Cuning is more important than willpower in early-mid game: one additional pet slot >>> a little bonuses to dmg/healing/whatever.

Through The Crowd prodigye:
(Swap places with friendly creatures in 1/10 turn.
Never damage allies or neutral creatures.
+10 all saves per friendly creature in sight.
+3 global speed per friendly creature in sight (max 15%)
Party members are automatically granted Through The Crowd.)
is super tricky part. You can easily see the bonuses, but there a non obv penalty: disbaling friendly fire will protect us - and pets - from hydra's breath or drake's aoe, but also jelly from beying hurting.
Jelly - is the best and easiest way to control our EQ, more important - to keep it at 0% during the whole fight. Yes, it's possible to get jelly hurting by enemy dmg, but it's much harder that putting it near the Tree/Drake.

Playing as summoner u should focus on active-items.
***Think about htem as class-talents!!***
Jump/teleports - msot important, because we don't have any mobility talents.
Shield/heal for whole party is cool, but worst than other options for this item-slot. Shield >> heal because we already have a few ways to regen our HP (especially after casting an another wild pet), when shields give us a chance to survive after hard attacks (because more "health").
Clearing silence/mental effects require some exprience to predict when u should to use it (which u don't have if still reading this wall of text, let's be honest). Also, we are somehow good protected from mental effects (because stacking will+cun, both of them wil increase our Mental Saves).
Cone push is ... meh. I don't trust on any "push" while playing on Insane: so many enemies will not moving and i'll wasting a turn for nothing. It's super risky as for me (even with low Saves and 0% knockback resistances this knockbacks fail in 40% or even more situations).
SIlence the enemy - imo, best slot for us from common items: it's a control (which we don't have, remember?), it's usefull in all game-phases control. Silence resistances is super-super rare, also, the chance for silce scales from Minpower (which we have alot). Also, can be used against our poor jelly.
Magic wands is a joke, but can be used against poor jelly too...
Storm stick is amazing, but i pref to avoid it on summoner (btw it was added in 1.6) because we can be pulled/teleported/moved somehow into this field of death and desctraction!!!

[Rainynight]

All other usefull tools - it's artifact based (yes: there a shields which will protect us from first X dmg. Very strong and usefull effect. But summoner can't "tank" the dmg. He must to avoid it. It's good to have this Shield-item in invetory to swap it, but as main item better to play with control/mobility-based abilities than pure "+X hp/heal/dmg").

Mobility: we don't have any as class, so we need to fix that. Atleast on infusion/rune should be about movement, but i recommend u take atleast two, because mobility - is a key in ToME. Idk what about low difficulties, but on Insane+ it's important.
Low cooldown >> power for movement infusion (well, 1000% 9cd is obv bettert than 315% 8cd, but u get it).
Blink - i pref low cd over range: with that i have more chances to change my positioning atleast SOMEHOW (don't forget, that we'll play around TONS of pets in battle field, even 2-tile teleports is important because we can hide behind some meat-shields). Another tricky part it's how teleports work in the game: you can't teleport with target(!) teleports in tile which u don't see (say hello to the demon's darkness and walking-shadows!). WIth low cd-teleports u'll get more chances to survive this non-obv element than with long cd (even if it will teleport u 10 tiles away).
Teleport rune is cool: strong (long range), easy to find with low cd. I love this rune for many classes but not for summoner: summoner WANT TO control his positioning in battlefield. Summoner MUST (should? can't remember which of these words is "stroner". whatever) control his positioning! And yes, if u have a chance to get a tinker escort - get a teleport immun. for boots.

Cloak/boots/chest/etc slots with random teleport: it's somehow good, but as before - we need to control our positioning... Summoner can do nothing if there will be shadowblade/sawbutcher/cursed+mindslayer (oh good...) in melee. No way to survive this ♥♥♥♥ other that be somewhere else. In this situations random teleports is usefull: whatever u'll be it's better that be in melee with shadowblade. It's like a "press when ♥♥♥♥ already happes". But u really should to avoid this BEFORE this happend. So yeah: it's a somehow good options, but u need something else too! Best - and easiest - what u can find, it's a Disengage (Jump ?) rings. Pretty usefull, one of the best for summoner items.

Heaing and sustain in general.
In 1.6 HP regen was buffed, and it's easy to find it on items after that. 15-28hp/turn before t2 it's not rare anymore. 50-70hp/turn in first half of the game - too.
Look, i know how this sounds: on paper, health regen mechanic is weak - u'll get hits let's say for 30-70 when your HP regen 7/turn. What a joke! You'll need 4-11 turns to get back HP from one(!) attack! while u'll get another attack, and another 4-11 turns to regen these dmg too...
But in practic, the HP/turn stat is super strong. Not as pure layer of protection - oh good, no! - but it's stiil strong. Fck, most of my characters playing withou any healing at all til 30-40lvls if they already had 18-30hp regen. On Insane. That because your are not sustaingn the dmg, but AVOIDING it by somehow. THe most common way - kill enemy before it cat act (say hello to lightning archmage). But if u can't do thatn, then control: one Stun or silence with perfect timing will save u alot of hp! You jsut need to get back a few hits from - usually - DoTs. And hp regen will cover that without any problem.
Back to summoner: he already have a good healing spell, a somehow good - super good healing after casting summons (depends of items), also some protection from talents, which must to be used before the dmg will be done! Don't forget about our wall of flesh...
So, i recommend movement / debuff clearing / control over healing for infusion/runes (acid rune is always welcome. Acid rune+silence torque is good combo to cover most situations in the game, not all ofc, but most. Again: cd over dmg).

Moving during the combat.

This is really hard to write without examples, in short terms... (and i'm already wrote a fckng useless wall of text lol).
Well, usually there two ways how to fight as summoner (Insane+, idk about low difficulties):
1) u trying to hold your positiong as long as possible aka survivile horror (which is +- truth for Madness lol)
2) your a moving back away from enemies, while spamming pets to hold them "a little longer".

Maybe it's looks the same, but there a difference in "where and who should be summoned next?" and "where and when should i step next?" parts.
There are many locatons in the game, where you don't wanna / or simple can't move at all, because there will be more enemies: Dreadfell, Darkcrypt, some of the prides etc. In this locations u have no real choice and must stay in one - let's say - room.
This is most difficul (but interesting imo) part of summoner gameplay: it feels like a mini-chess. You always need strong frontlane, but u need some space for your DPS-pets.

Try to alwayys be near the corner:

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xEEExxxxxxx
#####MJTxxxxx#####
#xxx@xxxxxHxxxxxoo##
##xxxxxxxxxxxRxxxx###
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We can't see the all battlefield (we can, because of pet's line of sight but w/e lol). but most important that enemies can't see us good enough. And also have a problems in melee - our meat-pet, poor jelly, and also Tree. Poor hydra is already frozen (or will be soon)... well, sad. Ritch Flamespitter can attack without problems.

It's a somehow good place for us to hold: line of sight, frontlane, space for distance-pets, free path for enemis to us, free space for us to move and even little corner where we can hide from over 65% of all battlefield. There also an another corner - "o" - where we can move if needed.
Also, it's possible to lock the enemies in CURRENT room if they teleported to us (ofc we need some way to move away from them, but then we can't "seal" the room with bunch of random pets. Acutlly, it's pretty good place to fight: i like it.

Moving back, while holding enemies "a little longer" is pretty simple: pet-or two > step back > repeat. Lol. But as i said: there a dozens locatons where u won't or can't do that, so it's good to learn how to "survive in one little room" in t1/t2 dungeons.

[Rainynight]

LoL.

[Rainynight]

Let's try simple:

Summoner - it's like mini-chess game inside the game: build a frontlane (but try to not block the path for enemies to you because of thier AI - they'll run across the map if that possible to get an another clear way). Get a window for your distance pets (clear line of sight).

Keep your jelly 24/7 somewhere in battlefield (best place near the Rimabark): jellywill resotre your EQ while taking dmg. Rimebark+jelly / fire drake+jelly / enemy aoe+jelly (or all together) - it's a best and easier way to keep your equilibrium at 0% the whole fight.

Focus on active item (Silence torque / Disengage ring musthave), any other move-based/control-based abilities is cool. Teleports are tricky, think before use them. Active-items for summoners - it's like a class talents.

Moving and kiting is a key in general, for summoner - it's all.

Avoiding dmg over healing/sustainng. Distance over melee range. Kiting over facetanking.

Character's bonuses to element damage will affect our pets (fire/phys is most important, ice/poison somehow too).

Distance pets easy to control, all pets will die fast on Insane. As result distanstance-based builds over melee based, all pets - just a meat (use as wall of flesh 24/7, but if that possible - try to put atleast Flamespitter away of the main battlefield).

Antimagic is good for summoner, but will reduce number of active items and acid runes (we don't have control n mobility at all). Antimagic shield not wroth it. Silence can be found by other means.

Cuning over WIllpower: +1 pet slot per 10 cunning. One additional (active) pet in battle >> +10dmg in early game.

Ritch Flamespitter has high dmg-per-turn and instant attack animation: don't put it near the enemy/in line of sight-Rush ability-etc and it will do all your job. Also, can be used to fast skipping first 10 levels, because he'll kill ANY enemy before it can kill u (just help him a bit and don't face-tank the enemies).
Flame spitter squishy af, it require a good position to fight.

Hydra/Drake/Tree/Minotaur can (will lol) hurt the friends: first two can oneshot, the second two can freeze/confuse. Bear in mind.
It's good idea to get 200% stun res while playing around the Tree: strong and usefull pet.

Think about hydra as burst dmg: usually it'll attack one or two times only, then it start moving (to get a better view to not hurt the friends) and will die, lol.

Drake is strong. Drake's childrens (from talent) will eat pet slots - cast Drake after all other pets (so, the childrens willl be over the maximum possible pet slots).

Prodigy Through The Crowd is bad, because u can't hurt your poor jelly anymore. Tree+jelly allows u to keep EQ at 0% the whole fight and it's a easiest way to do it... as i said.

Prodigy Blighted Summoning is good, but not worth: better to focus on yourself enchantemens.

Prodigy combo IICTW+PES is amazing for agressive playstyle. But bear in mind, that it will increase a maximum possible pets too, which will change the battle!

Prodigy Meteoric Crash will sets your fire damage bonus and penetration to your highest damage bonus/pen, which is super effective to for agressive builds around Drake (focusing on phys dmg will boost phys and fire at once).

[Rainynight]

Ah, fck. Still wall of text... I tried :(

[ZeroAffex]

Nguyên văn bởi Rainynight:

Ah, fck. Still wall of text... I tried :(

Hey Rainynight, thank you for the detailed information on summoner! I don't mind at all that you left me so much good tips and advice, the more the better! Sorry about the late response too, I am busy all day on Sundays and am just now able to sit down for some ToME.

I dabbled a bit lastnight and this morning working with some of the information you've provided and well I can't seem to live past level 10 lol I'm not even using auto-explore but as soon as I come across a baddy that is rocking steamguns or is able to grab me and pull me into them, it's been game over.

I really think summoner is the squishy character to play, that or am doing something wrong (most likely). I'm going to keep working at it and using the information you left to build on. I will ask, do you happen to have a link to your winner by chance?

Also, why are you pumping points into strength again? I am assuming its for melee damage modifiers/armor/prodigies? If you listed why, my apologies. Just trying to figure out what stats I need to focus on early game. I've been doing cun first, to get my summons to 2-3 asap then willpower to unlock better summons and lastly strength, to get heavy armor. By the time I make it to trollmire though (playing yeek as you did) I keep getting killed. Have lost like 4 in the last 2 days xD. so frustrating to play this class I swear lol

Anyways, I really appreciate all the time you took to write out all the useful information you did. I've learned a lot thanks to you and am getting a better grip on this class (somewhat). Your insight on positioning myself, inscriptions to use, prodigies, ect. has all been super helpful to me and am sure will serve many others that are going to attempt a summoner win. I've played almost all the classes now in my 1750 hours and for me, this is easily the toughest one to try and win with on nightmare/roguelike++. Am sure on normal I can do well but nightmare and above, not so much ha

But yea, would be nice to peek at your winner if you don't mind just to see exactly what skills/talents/inscriptions/gear you had to reference for myself. Oh and why you put so much focus on strength and maybe what I need to be focusing on early on so I don't die as soon as I enter trollmire playing as a yeek. Have a great day and I look forward to hearing back to you sometime when it's convenient. Cheers!

[Rainynight]

Not gonna lie - i pref to see a negative commets about my wallS of text: with that i can freely leave these conversations, but now i feel some... responsability? Lol.
___
I don't wanna show my characters, but i'm ready to answer your questions (because i already started to answering here). Why not? Well, there a few different reasons (a few of them u will not like at all), but think about this: you'll see my talents, but now HOW i'm using them (5/5 war-hound 5/5 minotaur 1/5 poor-jelly. War-hound n minotaur just a meat, filler buttons, when poor-jelly is one of my main buttons - for EQ managament. HOW do u will know WHICH one of active-items and WHEN i'm using, while i had 5/5 Device Mastery?). Think about my race choice too - yeek. Why i took this? You can't answering this question by just looking at my char-sheet. The answer was stupid: when i startetd this summoner i was too lazy and wanted to skip first 10 level ASAP, also get more pet slots ASAP (quick note: yeeks will get 9.1-9.7lvl after finishing their own location. Without any rares). Yep, that was my main reason why i started as yeek, but not as other race :D

I hope u got what i mean. Feel free to ask about specific moments n i'll try to help with them. But i feel that i have to menation, that i pref to hack&slash gameplay (aka diabloid), usually never using Track/Inspect button (but i'm looking at enemies by targeting them by abilities, so i still have an idea which class i faced... because items/auras/effects/etc. Still watching less that 20% times). Also, i pref mages and similar gameplay (but i have a dozens melee winers too), also, i love glass-cannon builds (which on Insane a bit harder to play...
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Let's back to topic.

STR as one of main stats was for my own build - sorry, if i forgot to mentioned that, my bad! IICTW+PES - it's a STR-based build, and this is why i had over 150 STR/CUN/WILL without PES's proc. But usually there no reason to max STR for summoner: CUN>WILL>whatever u want.

You said u can't survive past 10lvl as summoner. I think ur problem is a race choice: yeeks will be with ~160 or so hp after they leaved their place. They also will be ~9lvl which means that they'll meet rare n possible randbosses already (note: i'm talking about Insane, idk about Nightmare). Also, yeek-summoner starting with infusion, not runes. ~160hp, strong enemy, no Shields at all - it's not a joke! Even for me - who prefered to play as squishy-fckngbroken-glass-cannons. I hate to hard-planning n playing in hard-tactic in early game, so - not gonna lie - i'm dying a lot as yeek before 15-20lvl!
With that in mind, maybe your problem not with class, but with race? Try to get something with +1 or more base HP.

If u feel that your problem not about the race, then there something wrong with basis-knowledge, i'm pretty sure (because u said u have over 1.7h).
___
Make sure to put one point into Meditate (for passive EQ during rest), BUT DON"T ACTIVATE THIS ABILITY, BECAUSE IT'LL MAKE U AND YOUR PETS(!) SUFFER 50% DMG PENALTY (if u know how - use float points for Meditate, later u can play without it, but Mind-based classes have so many Generic talents... u can't take all at once. Meditate is good choice to skip, but it's for later)

Max Ritch Flammer, 1/5 melee pets (or float points into them if u know about this mechanic). Your main goal - Fire drake. Before drake feel free to take everything u see (we need them as a meat, no more), but try to focus on Tree too (Put float points into Hydra, if u know how to use).

Quick tip: on Insane rare enemis in T1 locations will be spawn only for 4+ characters. If your character is level three when u stepd on floor at first time, there will be no rare at all (maybe unique troll in Trollmire with Reflecting Shield - not sure about him).

Clear all T1 dungeons before T2 (mostly for loot, but for EXP too).

Gloom is much harder to clear after 4lvl (because of rares) and even more harder after 10lvl (because of uniques/randbosses). But it easiest locaton to clear before 4lvl (only mouse/wolf enemies which will die by oneshots. Drem-whatevershitname boss in Gloom is easily killible for summonr (spamm Ritch Flamespitter. Stay away more that 7 tiles away - 7 tiles it's a "standart" psionic distants, and 10 tiles away if possibe - 10tiles is range for DIstortion tree).

Trollmire has many trolls which has penalty to fire dmg (our Flame Spitter has fire dmg, which means it will deal much more dmg to them, which means we can skip this location to clear it later, when there will be more rares n uniques).

Norgos Lair has many bears n snakes: snakes passively has more speed, also they are using unique AI, so they can dodge some abiliteis (just a general tip, not affected summoner, because it didn't using any projectiles). Bear in mind that bears... (lol?) passively has Stuns, regardless of their class - if any. So, some rare bears can Stun two or even three times!!! (good luck to clear all three of them as low level character).
As a 4k+ hours player i fear this location more than any other: it's other my last T1 dungeon or the first one (for some melee-based classes, because - ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ - i don't wanna fight in melee against these bears!). Mediocore location for summoner, but jsut because it can roll 1-tile corridor maze.

Ruins of Kor'Pul, or "free exp" as i love to say in game-chat, they are filled with mostly with skeletons n bandits: skele are immune to bleed/poison (doesn't really matter for summoner), but bandits can be dangerous... If u allowed them to stack bleeds and/or posion (especially poison) - it's easy-to-miss element. Other that that there can be (rolled) some drakes n orks. Drakes will get 100% resists for one element (so, fire drakes can be a pain for our Ritch Flamesippter, when cold drakes - for our Tree). Other that that there nothing interesting. BUT, for summoner there a unfun part: many narrow (tight?) corridors - a bit hard to placing pets.

Rhaloren Camp, or "free exp... OH ♥♥♥♥, AGAIN THIS BOSS!1". There two different version of location: open space-like n dungeon-like, each of them good or bad for different classes.
Summoner pref the first one: open fields - what we like. If it u got - there will be no problem for u, i think. The dungeon-like will be a bit harder - feel free to skip and return after.
Quick note: dungeon-like version - IIRC, lol - has a deadly boss. The one, that staying near lef or right side of monitor (not at the bottom-center, behind the wall); Arcane blade-based boss plus rogue, this boss has high dmg at the distance, but even more dmg in melee - and can oneshote squshy character by procs and/or with a few poison stacks.
Somehow easy location for summoner, depends of positioning.

Scintillating Caves - this is actually a tricky locations: open space-like is good for summoner, but evenso it can be dangerous, because of many corners - hard to see this "open space", but there can be snakes n bears too (high global speed and an additional Stuns, remember?), so it' not fun to walking around. The second variation of this location is tight-maze-like ♥♥♥♥! Without mobility and with bad luck n RNG, u can be blocked by many eniems in a few turns! Be carefull with this one generation...

[Rainynight]

Ok. Now, when we somehow (i probabaly forgot many things about these locations, because all of them is.. routine(?) already, feel free to ask) know about T1 dungeon features, we can finally start to play.

Usually u have no reason to visit shops before 10-13lvl (but doom elvs will have 100-180gold after their location), but when u have check the mage city for any rings and good wands: best ring for early game - Jump (disengage?) or HP n hp-regen, if u don't wanna use active items (lazy, but risky option. i pref this one :p ). Best wands is a Shield-wand. Why not A storm one? Because Shield wand will affect all our pets too, and only in early-game it will have +- strong effect, later it will so weak for us... BUT the Storm wand is SUPER-SUPER effective for Gloom, if u pref to clear it after 15level: mediocore AoE dmg and AoE root is amazing there. Actually, it worth to buy this wand just to clear Gloom only, and the sell it back, lol.

Also, check runes there: if u'll be SUPER lucky, u'll get storm-rune. Think twice about i - if u found it in shop, because usually it's a 30+ lvl item.
In early game summoner wanna a Shatter rune (quick note: Insane player talking here. On Insane you WILL face confusions/sleeps/silence/inner demons etc. Like over9000 stuns, dazes, poisons etc. Shatter rune - is best universal (multipurpose?) way to be prepared for this ♥♥♥♥ On low difficulty these debuffs, iirc, is rare. But maybe i'm wrong).
Acid rune is good for summoner, even at start, not jokes here: it's really pain to get rid of random assasins/any-melee-enemies-who-rushed-teleported-to-us. Acid rune is instant: u'll get a few turns to run AND even if they'll attack u before u can move away, it'll be nothing because they'll be disarmed already.
Cold rune is usefull, but i personally found it's a bit tricky for my playstyle, because u can't debuff the frozen enemies. It's really sad.

Invis rune... i don't like it. It's a bit random to me, to play around invis mechanic on Insane as squishy character. Sorry, can't say more about this one.

If u was unlucky with rings (or if u already antimagic - let's say - Krog), then... Well, that's a rough start, imo. I hate early game without ring at all..

Infusions: as i said before, i usually focusing on HP regen, and if i got it, then i playing without Regen/Heal infusions at all, and taking another Shatter (but usually - phys Wild infusion).
Regen Infusion is tricky/ i'll not talk about specifcit builds, but in general: its bad. I mean, it's can be good, but it's just a heal - which require a turn before. If your character needed in strong healing (but this is why we used Regen, no?) then we ALREADY did something wrong. Best way to save your health (and as result - character) is avoid the dmg! Also, Regen can't help if your character got more dmg than his(her) maximum HP... Heal Infusion is much better: it can heal too, but not only heal, but instant-heal AND also clear some debuffs. So, as for me, HEAL Infusion >> REGEN Infusion (again - in general. There a dozens situations, where Regen is more preferable).

Wild Infusion - classic option. Phys debuffs is more common, Mental debuffs is somehow rare, but unexpected Sleep or all-ToME-players-love-Inner Demons can end your character. Magic debuffs is super rare even for Insane: usually there only two dangeroues-and-we-want-to-clear-this-ASAP debuffs. First it's a magic version of confusion from Necromancer-based enemies (dark AoE ability with black dots particle effect on the ground, there a CHANCE to get MAGIC confusion). The second one - it's a Doom debuff, which reduce your hp (usually stopped...) AND at the same time slowly kill u. But again - it's rare, even for Insane.
With that in mind: PHYS wild > MENTAL > MAGIC (and only after T1, or even T2). For summoner its prior makes even more sense because we already have better Mental Saves (from Cun/Will).

If u are lucky - grab double version of wild infusion (phys/mental is best and usefull all the time).

Heroism... I'll be simple: u the player with 1.7k hours can't survive as summoner past 10 lvl, then he can't use Heroism Infusion effectively too. It's requires some prediction and strategic mind. Don't take that as offensive, it's just fact: it's just hard to use correctly.

Movespeed - musthave. Even after the nerf, it's still good even for melee (who was most affected by this nerf). I recommend u take this at lvl 10, because u still can get nothing usefull from class talents at lvl10 anyway lol. But Movespeed infusion will be - WILL be - usefull for summoner, because we don't have natural mobility at all. Again, low CD over power (there only a few places in the game where u REALLY wanna high-power movespeed, and it's super lategame, and also have an alternative way do deal with them).

[Rainynight]

A few notes about gameplay.

Don't forget that Flamespitter can attack targets at 10 tiles away from IT, not from us: we can attack enemies 14+ tiles away! Also, our pets can see the enemies even without a light radius (or whatever this stat called): u can place them in pure darkness and they'll find a target even if u - the player - can see it (but if they will be Blinded by abilities, they will "miss" sometimes, because of Blind mechanic, yep).

Melee pets usually will attack the nearest to them in moment when they was casted target: sometimes - sometimes - they will target something else. But it's rare, so u can count that your war-hound will be attack the target which next to them.

I wrote about it a few times already, but i'll write again: summoner's pet - it's just cannon fodder. Summon them not only for dmg, but for blocking projectiles too! You can even summon a pet directly at the tile with steamgun's projectile to "absorb" it (usually summonet pet'll die immediately lol. Better to summon something high-lvl - more chance that they'll survive).
Also, u can just put a pet (preferable a Flamespitter) as far as possible, jsut to check if there any enemies around. You also can check around the corner with this trick. It doesn't have to be a distance pet: melee pets can "see" the enemies from 10 tiles too, so they'll move after being summoned towards the enemy.

When i'm playing as summoner, i pref to focus on a few pets only and take other just to unlock them; learning all enemies near mid/late game by placing 1 points into. But it's because of my playstyl. For u, maybe, it'll be better to get as many as possible pets to always get something to summon if they dying to fast. But even so, take atleast one damage-dealer.

Also, use your pets to abuse enemy stupid AI. For example: Bill will rush towards first seen enemy, so it's a good idea to start a fight by casting the pet, not by moving towards the boss. Wirmyc-like enemies (and most minotaurs-based) will cast AoE, phys-based Confusion as their first activon: we can avoid this effect by placing any pet from a distance.
Lich, as a first ability, usually will cast one of two AoE abilities (frost-based, or darknes -based, the lat one confus and/or blind enemies inside).
Most of the melee-rare based enemies will try to use Stun-based abilities, but shadow-blade based pref a Flurry.
Doomed-based, as their first ability, usually trying to attack u by multiple Shadow's attack (general tip: use some protection against burst before move towards them. Usually, u need to survive this attack only, but if your class has low dmg-per-turn, then be ready to survive a few more +-same attacks - they'll be a bit weaker, but still strong).
Mindslayers has really stupid AI and never use their ability effective, but their raw weapon-based dmg is high. If mindslayer enemy has an additional melee-based class (sawbutcher/cursed/doombringer, then other) don't let them be near u lol.
Sawbutcher must be kited, even if looks weak (yep, even if it's just a mouse).
Gunslingers... well, even after a 4k+ hours in the game, i'm still losing characters by Trick-shot in one turn. Which can be avoided if u are inspecting the enemy before fighting them... but i'm to lazy :D

Who's next? Idk... Corruptors? Since ~18 level they can cast something every turn, so u can't just "wait" til there will be a window without another bight-flying ♥♥♥♥ towards your face. Good moment, that half of thier abilities can be blocked by pets. Also, there a somehow good option against poison/disease in General trees for wild-based classes from Harmony tree.
Solipsists? Yeah: mind resists is +- rare, and also hard to find together with good stats (not like fire, for example: it's a common practic to see 11 resist types in character sheet - all but mind, Same can be said about arcane or temporal, but w/e...). Solipsists has a few (un)fun moments: Mind Sear - 2 turns cd means high dmg-per-turn (against low resits - usaully - target), thought-form - not that dangerous, but can deal a good dmg before u realising that this enemy not a "just some random white-based enemy", but rare (or even unique+)-based pet, Maelstorm - pretty strong control, which requires a spicial ways to deal with; and finally - Sleep debuff - rare, and usually unexpected type of control. Usually it's enough to be far away from solipsist (8 a more against Mind Sear, 10+ against AoE Sleep, Maelstorm can becasted at 10 radius and it's an AoE based ability, so it's a bit tricky just to dodge it. So, usually u wanna get this effect from a distance, wait til it ended and the n engage in fight and finish it before the cooldown resets...).

Archer? There nothing interesting other that Mark debuff: when u was marked - do everything to avoid next dmg, or be prepared to being hard-hitting.

Skirmisher (mid/late game) can be hard-to-kill by melee pets - use distances against it.

Archmage's Disruption Shield will explode when the caster will get enough dmg: the damage is real since ~24 lvl already, pets around the Archamge will be dead for sure. AM's Arcane Vortex has somehow strong dmg since ~16 already. Other than that nothing interesting in early game.

Necromancer's skeleton-based pets (1.7.xp) will deal high AoE dmg around then before dying, our pets will probably dead after that, so it's good to leave the combat radius before that. There a few AoE-based abilities which we really wanna to avoid, so it's positioning-based fight. But it's all matter for mid T2 and after.

Cursed, especially with Ramge-buff, must be blocked by good pet-placing. Otherwise, u'll get a hard times...

Reaver can dispel our sustains in melee: not that we have something really important, but still. Be careful with debuff-clearing in fight against Reaver. Be careful with fast-pressing buttons during the fight: reaver (and waifu that walks) can teleport towards u any time - one-two fast clicks can be your last clicks.

[Rainynight]

Doombringer has strong opening melee attack - it's better to catch it by pet, not buy own body. Other that that there nothing interesting about him: this guy can (probably will) teleport towards us once. That's all.

Demonoligist has a few abilities to reach us, one of them is teleport-based. Demo also can survive enough dmg before dying, so be sure that poor-jelly is suffering since the battle start: it can be a long battle.

Anorithil - positioning based fight (since min game): look at the floor, avoid 3x3 yellow ♥♥♥♥, avoid traps, try to avoid darkness ♥♥♥♥ (not that it really matter, to be hoenst), be prepared for high 2-6turn burst dmg (but better fight from the corner lol).

Sun Pally - our melee pets will be healed by Sun Bath enemy ability, other that that there nothing iteresting.

Summoner - lock line of view for Flamespitter, stay away from Hydra (count that it will break friendly fire option - even it will try to no). Rimebark can (will) hurt their pets, because of stupid AI - use it! Don't facetank war-hound, try to not face-tank minotaur. be prepared for spider's Pin debuff for 10 turns (or something like that), be carefull with button-fast-spamming after ~15lvl, because enemy pets probably will reduce your (and your pets ofc) resits, there will be a dmg power spike towards u. Don't count on enemy EQ fails - it's will never happens. ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT PETS JUST A CANNON FODDER! U MUST TO KILL THE SUMMONER, so try to focus him more than pets.

Stone Warden - make a screenshot if u see this one.

Oozemancer - always watch on your debuffs status: poison can (will) stack fast, try to leave the muscus places ASAP. If that possible - try to attack the oozemancer togetehr with slimes (Tree/Hydra/Fire Drake).

Paradox Mage - super rare, AI is so stupid, never will be a problem. Try to attack all clones at once - that will end the fight faster. Entropy (orange debuff 6+turns) wil lremove one sustain-per-turn.

Psyshot - can knockback far away (FAAAAR away in mid/late game) and then Daze u, can Inner Demon'ed in mid game. Try to leave the fog-clouds (not that it's dmg strong enough, but fire res reduction...). Other that that nothing interesting.

Writhing One - i don't remember teleports from this enemies, even they have a few (one teleport, one jump), waifu that walks can teleport to u, tho. Other that that nothing interesting.

Cultist of Entropy - positioning fight (since mid game). Watch for "Gift" debuff (high dmg), also Whispers's dmg (not super high, but can be stacked easily), try to avoid the Herald (void-based pet? super high dmg), try to fight from the corner. Don't spamm buttons too fast -debuff dmg can stack and kill in two turns even if there was no dmg before.

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Well, that's a bit "general" tips, but i really don't know how to help more that that: summoner's gameplay all about positioning - character n hes pets. It's a weak, but at the same time strongest side of this class: there no natural mobility at all (when shadowblade has ~11(!) mobility-based abilities), but also INCREDIBLE FREEDOM during the combat. It's very unique... thing.

[Rainynight]

Oh, man, i just remembered: there an Arena mode in the game!

It's actually a good place to test your pet-placing skill: not a real battlefield, but stil an open space place. Not enough space to move freely, so u should to protect yourself buy wall of pets: it's actually fun, chess-like experience.
Combat only, lack of gear (so, there never be a situations where your character is "overgeared", so he can just oneshote everthing without thinking... well, maybe a first few levels against fozens mouses...), only u and your pets.

Maybe this mode will be more helpful than all text above? :D
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Not gonna lie, when i was on Arena, i was sitting on the corner without moving at all :D It's reminds me some survival horrors made on Flash, ha-ha.