Tales of Maj'Eyal

Tales of Maj'Eyal

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Yiasmat Nov 17, 2018 @ 12:12pm
Invisible Enemies
i got quite a few hours and while i wish i could forever remove all adventure parties from the world map, there is one thing i am getting somewhat even more annoyed by than that...

invisible enemies. why do they have to be invisible when your character knows where they are? this either results in you, passing turns till you see them again since thats faster, or (on higher difficulties) rightclicking every square to see if they are there (to see if you can "inspect creature").
why? i get that they are invisible. its fun to guess where they are and act and or guess accordingly, but if your char already knows where they are, you gain nothing from it other than either annoyingly passing turns or annoyingly clicking squares till you find them again. and that only affects chars that dont have many ranged targeted abilities, since your char auto targets the "invisible" (which he isnt for him but only for you) enemy automatically....
Last edited by Yiasmat; Nov 17, 2018 @ 12:12pm
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Showing 1-15 of 23 comments
ThatWhichIsMe Nov 17, 2018 @ 3:22pm 
Originally posted by "Yiasmat":
i got quite a few hours and while i wish i could forever remove all adventure parties from the world map, [...]
I can sympathize, believe me. Fortunately, I can offer the next best thing: my Opt-inAdventurers Parties addon.
Yiasmat Nov 17, 2018 @ 9:48pm 
yeah i have that installed but it still sucks. Sure, you dont insta rip your run by touching them but 1. its still super annoying when you click somewhere on the world map and your char stops moving and you have to mash the button to get going. especially in the far east, those orcs are so freaking annoying and serve no purpose other than being tedious.
2. it means that if you are an undead you have to wear the stupid garbage cloak forever. i am not going to micromanage that thing and reequip it every time i leave a zone (since without it, the addon doesnt work)
Hey Nov 17, 2018 @ 10:54pm 
Originally posted by Yiasmat:
yeah i have that installed but it still sucks. Sure, you dont insta rip your run by touching them but 1. its still super annoying when you click somewhere on the world map and your char stops moving and you have to mash the button to get going. especially in the far east, those orcs are so freaking annoying and serve no purpose other than being tedious.
2. it means that if you are an undead you have to wear the stupid garbage cloak forever. i am not going to micromanage that thing and reequip it every time i leave a zone (since without it, the addon doesnt work)

Try Zomnibus addon instead. It doesn't remove the patrols entirely, but it allows you to dodge or fight them when they are nearby. Then ask the shertul butler to integrate the cloak to your undead, freeing your cloak slot from the thing.

Edit: oops, apparently both do the same thing. Zomnibus is still worth trying, tho, as it's more updated.
Last edited by Hey; Nov 17, 2018 @ 10:57pm
Yiasmat Nov 18, 2018 @ 12:07am 
zomnibus uses the opt-in adventure parties addon. they are the same thing. i wish there was a way to completely remove them though...
but back to topic: why are invisible enemies displayed invisible? it sux...
GrimSentinel Nov 18, 2018 @ 7:49pm 
If I remember correctly, skills will automatically target the closest enemy within range that you can see, even if they are invisible. So if there's an invisible enemy that you've spotted, using a ranged skill should cause the cursor to jump right to them.
Yiasmat Nov 18, 2018 @ 9:48pm 
thats exactly my point: why is that? ive already spottet them, my character OBVIOUSLY knows where the invisible enemy is. why is he not shown in a blue cloak to indicate hes invisible, but with the sprite actually rendered? why do i have to guess where the guy is if i dont have a ranged skill available? why? why not just show the enemy? this is so annoying...
Berenthas Nov 18, 2018 @ 10:05pm 
Engine limitation.
Yeah, the right-click thing is annoying because it's hard to restrain yourself from using it when you're in a pinch.
But regarding that point : "my character OBVIOUSLY knows where the invisible enemy is" just because you know doesn't mean invisibility bonus are negated. You still have 66% chance to miss as melee , and the enemy damage is still reduced (depending on the source of invisibility)
Yiasmat Nov 18, 2018 @ 11:47pm 
engine limitation can't be true and to the hit chance: they already have this figured out though. they already make enemies appear in a blue-ish transparent shape when they are invisible... sometimes. why not just use that?
have the enemy invisible when you have no idea that they are even there.
have the enemy in this blue-ish transparent shader if your char knows where they are (but they are still invisible, so all effects of that apply)
Berenthas Nov 19, 2018 @ 4:19am 
They appear as blueish transparent when you see them even though they are invisible.
They don't appear when you don't see them.
They appear briefly when you briefly see them.
Those are three different cases, hence the three different result in display
Yiasmat Nov 19, 2018 @ 7:27am 
but gampeplay wise, they are all the same thing. either you see them, or you don't. if you "briefly" see them, your character still sees them. he will not rest since he knows that there is an enemy nearby, and he knows exactly where that enemy is.
so why does my character have more game information than me if i don't want to waste a bunch of time rightliclicking squares?
briefly seeing them has the same gameplay impact than it being blueish transparent. if you breefly saw them, and then the enemy turns invisible again, that would be fine. but they don`t turn invisible again. their sprite turns off but your character "sees" them.
. Nov 19, 2018 @ 2:20pm 
Have you seen the 1987 movie, "Predator"? The alien has an device on his rig that allows light to refract around it. There are times the main characters see this effect (the blue outline in ToME) only for it to quickly fade from view again (no more blue outline).

The characters then start shooting wildly, aiming at nothing and hoping to get lucky (aka they are right clicking with their mouse on the squares in ToME). They know something is there, they have seen it, though they can't see it anymore.

These characters realize they can't use their eyes as primary sense here and use the other senses to get a lock on the alien. Just because they sense that something is there does not allow them to see it with their eyes (catching "sight" of an invisible creature in ToME only to have it disappear from view again).

When the characters are certain of where the creature is, even though its invisible, they still can't aim as accurately as if it were visible, (hence a 66% to hit penalty in ToME). But they do know generally where the creature is (ranged attacks in ToME showing the square the invisible enemy is on).

C'mon Yiasmat, it's not that overly difficult, but it's also not as simplistic as you are trying to make it sound either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqDwqdSF6Ec
Yiasmat Nov 19, 2018 @ 9:53pm 
ok ok ok ok....
first of: tome is a game. game design should stand before everything. making something realistic should never come at the cost of making it tedious. the fun and gameplay stands at first place. so even if this would be the more realistic system, it is defenitly not the best one for the game flow.

second: that still leaves out the part, where your character has more information than you. I AM guessing where the preditor is. HE already knows. I am prohibited from doing what i would do in this situation (back up around a corner and rest) cause HE knows that the enemy (which DID NOT flash visible again) walked around the corner too and is still in sight. I never saw that. But he knows it. He knows when it backs up, he knows always exactly where it is, he is apparently a god of predicting things from one simple flash of visibility.

and all of this doesn't matter if you are a ranged char. there is no guessing where the invisible enemy is. you click your spell, and your all knowing character will still target the enemy. this only comes into play when you do not have any ranged skills at your disposal. at which point, and i have to say this again, it becomes tedious.
. Nov 20, 2018 @ 5:45pm 
Are you suggesting that Predator is in any way realistic? It's just a movie. And if you find the game you are playing, any game at all, to be tedious, maybe take a break and/or find something else to occupy your time. Life's too short to be enthralled to tedium, and I sincerely doubt the invisibility mechanics of ToME will change anytime soon.
Yiasmat Nov 22, 2018 @ 11:16am 
none of that makes sense from a game developement point of view.
1. if you don't like our game, play something else. what? that's not the point a game should have... they should avoid tedioum so people dont leavue so people play the game.
2. i doubt it will be changed either. but not being vocal about something you think is clearly wrong with the game will never make it change. this way, i at least told my opinion.

and on a side note: its really sad that it wont get changed. it wouldnt take that long to code since the mechanics and everything is already there....
. Nov 22, 2018 @ 3:28pm 
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were a game developer. Good luck with that! :dwarven:
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Date Posted: Nov 17, 2018 @ 12:12pm
Posts: 23