Best and Worse classes

[Powerslave]

ToMe has some pretty strange classes.
Which classes do you think shine as the best overall? And which ones do you think are the worst overall?

[ajohnemus]

Outside of possessor, Paradox Mage still reigns supreme. Too many escape tools and defenses.

Worst is probably summoner, they arent even the best summoner!!

[doingwork]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

Originally posted by doingwork:

Doomed weak in insane? Doomed is probably top 3 in insane. You need to survive the early to be sure, but once you get antimagic you pretty much start steamrolling. Once you get Fungus its pretty hard to die, like you have to blatantly mess up.

I've won insane roguelike twice on doomed out of probably 4-5 tries, but I can't even get to the far east on arcane blade which people claim is strong after numerous tries.

1: "Doomed is probably top 3"

Except that it isn't, and there are a LOT of tier lists to prove you wrong. (All made by people with 4000+ hours into the game and over a 100 insane wins)

2: "You need to survive the early game"

This applies to all classes, nothing revolutionary here, moving along.

3: "But once you get X"

Again this applies to all classes, not just doomed, once you get X then you win the game. (Which is why a lot of deaths are early game in insane, before you get to level 25)

4: "I've won with X on insane, therefore its top 3 right?"

No, that's called confirmation bias, just because you can, doesn't mean that everyone can, learn the difference, what if I can get to the far east super easily with Arcane Blade? That defeats your entire arguement here, again no logic at all.

You are way too late to the party boyo.

I'm late again to the party since I dont check my posts very often, but all I gotta say is: "Cool tier lists bruh". Tier lists are trash most of the time since the style of play of people who make tier lists is way different than most people. I think last tourney I watched for another game a whole team of D-F tier heroes stomped the final and their S-A tiers.

If a "mediocre" player like me can steamroll insane on Doomed then its clearly not "one of the weakest". Let me guess, arcane blade with some niche weird build that plays some non-intuitive way is 10x better right?

As someone with 600 hours (so little I know), there are some classes that I could probably beat insane on (like arcane blade) but would need tons of hours with careful planning, excessive scouting, going slow, etc. That makes them weaker classes IMO. Doomed isn't one of those; you hit a stride and steamroll. IDC what your tier lists say; there is no way doomed is weaker than even half the classes on insane.

[LordKarasuman]

Doomed can't be Top 3 by virtue of the fact that there are only three classes that are Madness-viable without the use of vaults/mods/cheats (and with extensive documentation!) and Doomed isn't one of them.

It also probably isn't A-tier because there are like 10+ classes (including the aforementioned top 3) that have a waaaayyyyy easier time in the one place everyone has a hard time, Tier 2 dungeons.

[IdealPoint]

I'll just say that shadows seem very underwhelming when I have tried them on insane. They die too easily, eat hate, draw aggro, and don't do much damage late game. But force of will is very good even after the nerf.

[ajohnemus]

Originally posted by IdealPoint:

I'll just say that shadows seem very underwhelming when I have tried them on insane. They die too easily, eat hate, draw aggro, and don't do much damage late game. But force of will is very good even after the nerf.

They are good for utility, sight, swapping death protection etc.

You’re right you can’t rely on them for damage though. Doomed is usually better off just bumping for damage.

I went 5/5/5/5 in force and still ended up bumping the final bosses on insane.

[doingwork]

Originally posted by LordKarasuman:

Doomed can't be Top 3 by virtue of the fact that there are only three classes that are Madness-viable without the use of vaults/mods/cheats (and with extensive documentation!) and Doomed isn't one of them.

It also probably isn't A-tier because there are like 10+ classes (including the aforementioned top 3) that have a waaaayyyyy easier time in the one place everyone has a hard time, Tier 2 dungeons.

Well adventurer and possesser don't count, they are clearly a cut above anything else and aren't really meant to be balanced.

T2 dungeons can be a struggle for doomed sometimes for sure (like every class), but only due to hard-hitting melee. You can easily have anti-magic by T2 dungeons and so casters are generally not too bad, where other classes can be demolished by casters. I find T2 dungeons easier on Doomed than most, but thats pretty much where any run with Doomed would end.

The hardest part of the game IMO is the prides, and doomed steamrolls them. Can't tell you how many times my brawler or something has been breezing through the game to just get roflstomped right in the first pride I step into.

[LordKarasuman]

I mean, sure, take out Adventurer and Possessor from consideration. Let's also set aside the number of classes that have an easier time than Doomed at the hardest part of the game, which I'd argue is T2s over Prides because Prides are the point where you should be OHKO-ing everything with pretty much any class IMO.

But if you want to argue that Doomed is somehow better than PM, TW, and/or Archmage, well... I feel like the slope of that uphill battle is impossible to overcome.

[doingwork]

Originally posted by LordKarasuman:

I mean, sure, take out Adventurer and Possessor from consideration. Let's also set aside the number of classes that have an easier time than Doomed at the hardest part of the game, which I'd argue is T2s over Prides because Prides are the point where you should be OHKO-ing everything with pretty much any class IMO.

But if you want to argue that Doomed is somehow better than PM, TW, and/or Archmage, well... I feel like the slope of that uphill battle is impossible to overcome.

Hmmm, top 3 may be hard to narrow, but even my top 5 probably wouldn't include Archmage. It's way too "1 mistake and you're dead" for me. Maybe its playstyle doesn't agree with me, but its way too risky, and so much harder to get through T2 than most. I think my personal top 5 for insane would be (in no order): Doomed, Annhilator, PM, TW, Oozemancer (my first insane roguelike win and my first time playing it, Ooze is amazing).

[King]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

Originally posted by mjkittredge:

You're so toxic. Do you think Darkgod wants a community on the forums and in game that is supportive of and welcoming to new players to make the games followers grow?
Or do you think he wants condescending jerks and trolls to jump all over every thread and post douchey comments in reply to people?

Seriously, check your obnoxious attitude problem. For everyones sake here.
You might have a few good points here and there but nobody is going to care if you're continually talking down to them in smug, elitist fashion. It's not even funny or amusing, it's just tedious. Skillful trolls at least provide entertainment value. But that requires a modicum of social intelligence...

Ahh yes, here comes the white knight in shining armor, to the rescue as per usual.

Maybe your social intelligence isn't on point today, but I can understand if you didn't get what the other guy was talking about, he was making fun of me in a sarcastic tone, I guess you just didn't pick up on that, but yeh, biased and directed as always, you blame me for it, and not him, because somewhere deep inside you WANT to label me as bad, you dont want anything else, dont try and tell me otherwise, Hypocrite.

Originally posted by mjkittredge:

You're so toxic.

Originally posted by mjkittredge:

condescending jerks and trolls

Originally posted by mjkittredge:

check your obnoxious attitude problem

Originally posted by mjkittredge:

nobody is going to care

Originally posted by mjkittredge:

But that requires a modicum of social intelligence...

For someone talking about other peoples attitudes, you seem to be very opinionated yourself, why doesn't it occur to you that you're doing the exact same thing? what is this bigotry that I see before me.

You label people, you judge people, you point fingers and declare curses upon others, you white knight them into oblivion only to become the black knight, isn't that the height of hypocrisy?

Attitude shaming.

Intelligence shaming.

Saying that people will not care about the person.

Labeling people as toxic and calling them names.

You are pretty messed up, you know that?

You are not the boss of this forum, you are not the moderator, you are not important to anyone here, nobody is going to bat an eye at your so called opinions that are on display here, you are a hypocrite, how about you act the way you want me to act instead yeh?

Why should I take anything that you say seriously when you act like this, I dont, you're not important to me, I defended myself from a sarcastic person, you just jumped in because you saw an opportunity to put some shade on me, that's all there is to it.

And you call me toxic? oof.

I'm not going to respond to this thread again, this is silly.

I hope whatever ails you will be gone soon.

Have a nice day. :ErannorthRebornYorik::gearthumbsup:

Small Edit: and his post is gone, well done.

Your head has gotten so far up your bum it's incredible.

[Tryble]

My Insane wins (Just AoA, though) include Bulwark, Berserkerx2, Necromancer, Wyrmic, Oozemancer, Stone Warden, Sun Paladin, and Temporal Warden. Post-run thoughts on all those characters is in this[forums.te4.org] forum thread.

Of those, the worst was by FAR the Necromancer - this was pre rework and tried out staying as a non-lich character. It was pure misery and easily the worst and most frustrating time I ever had with ToME. I'm glad it's seen a rework since then, I'll consider checking it out later.

The best class is harder to nail down - lots of these classes are both strong, durable, and have lots of tools to handle dangerous situations. I'd say the easiest was Bulwark - Dwarf Bulwark specifically. Bulwark's already pretty indestructible, and building for saves instead of immunities on that character rendered him almost straight up immune to status effects altogether. Bulwark's offense isn't nearly that bad so long as you build your damage properly (offensive prodigy, up to date weapon, keep main damage stat maxed, the usual)
although fighting high healing, high armor, high phys resistant randbosses and certain Pride bosses was pretty brutal.

I'd say the funnest/most interesting might have been the Time Warden. He was played as a pure archer who built defenses almost entirely around the hilariously powerful Out of Phase defense bonuses you get from Blink runes - if you teleporting during out of phase with a piece of equipment that provides out of phase bonuses on teleport, you extend the most powerful of those effects. TW doomelf has so many teleports that you can keep a single very strong out of phase buff running effectively fulltime. However, doing so is pretty tricky to manage while also fighting, since a decent chunk of your teleports are thing you actually want to fight with and don't wanna waste - juggling all that made for an unexpectedly interesting run.

[doingwork]

Originally posted by Tryble:

My Insane wins (Just AoA, though) include Bulwark, Berserkerx2, Necromancer, Wyrmic, Oozemancer, Stone Warden, Sun Paladin, and Temporal Warden. Post-run thoughts on all those characters is in this[forums.te4.org] forum thread.

Of those, the worst was by FAR the Necromancer - this was pre rework and tried out staying as a non-lich character. It was pure misery and easily the worst and most frustrating time I ever had with ToME. I'm glad it's seen a rework since then, I'll consider checking it out later.

The best class is harder to nail down - lots of these classes are both strong, durable, and have lots of tools to handle dangerous situations. I'd say the easiest was Bulwark - Dwarf Bulwark specifically. Bulwark's already pretty indestructible, and building for saves instead of immunities on that character rendered him almost straight up immune to status effects altogether. Bulwark's offense isn't nearly that bad so long as you build your damage properly (offensive prodigy, up to date weapon, keep main damage stat maxed, the usual)
although fighting high healing, high armor, high phys resistant randbosses and certain Pride bosses was pretty brutal.

I'd say the funnest/most interesting might have been the Time Warden. He was played as a pure archer who built defenses almost entirely around the hilariously powerful Out of Phase defense bonuses you get from Blink runes - if you teleporting during out of phase with a piece of equipment that provides out of phase bonuses on teleport, you extend the most powerful of those effects. TW doomelf has so many teleports that you can keep a single very strong out of phase buff running effectively fulltime. However, doing so is pretty tricky to manage while also fighting, since a decent chunk of your teleports are thing you actually want to fight with and don't wanna waste - juggling all that made for an unexpectedly interesting run.

Interesting that you think Bulwark is easiest; I found it to be one of the hardest classes to win insane on, borderline not-doable in most runs. As soon as you hit some crazy mental-based like solipsist or doomed unique or boss you just lose. I don't know how to get your saves to a point where you aren't just locked to death, and can't really do enough damage to compensate. Physical attacks are rarely the thing that gets you killed.

I never played necromancer pre-rework but the post-rework is very very strong. Definitely worth playing as there are a bunch of builds you can go with.

[IdealPoint]

The new necromancer is incredibly strong. On my run it absolutely murdered every boss with river of souls and corp...., had over 100 armor, insane saves, never ran out of souls, multiple teleports and shields, etc. I was basically minionless, just putting one point into the ghouls for the free instant tank that also warns you of invis enemies. The only hard part on insane was killing the graveyard necromancer at 25. I had to channel the rod of recall just long enough before engaging to get me out after killing her as I had no chance against the grave uniques.

[doingwork]

Originally posted by IdealPoint:

The new necromancer is incredibly strong. On my run it absolutely murdered every boss with river of souls and corp...., had over 100 armor, insane saves, never ran out of souls, multiple teleports and shields, etc. I was basically minionless, just putting one point into the ghouls for the free instant tank that also warns you of invis enemies. The only hard part on insane was killing the graveyard necromancer at 25. I had to channel the rod of recall just long enough before engaging to get me out after killing her as I had no chance against the grave uniques.

Yea its crazy fun. I played a full minion lich build that also owned. Was fun watching my super-mage skelly 1shotting a room with its meteor spell.

[Kazrim]

I mean.... I can't speak to best but I'm fairly certain possessor and the chronomancers sit comfortably there oh and arcane blade is godly buuuut for worst? Wanderer - But if not meme then I guess...

Doombringer and demonologist come to mind. Doombringer isn't really BAD(I love that class) just it's really a hyper glass cannon and it do be like that. Demonologist is just... a really slow ball to get rolling, best bet with them is going undead because their normal starting area you'll find yourself more often than not being taken to detroit.

[tayon1990]

As practice has shown, the worst class is the one you don't know how to play. For example, I don't know how to play Demented, three characters in a row can't open Drem for me.
The best class is the opposite, the one that suits your play style. Personally, I love Paradox Mage. He immediately gives you mass control, which allows you to push opponents away from you and the escape skill, the need for which at high difficulty levels is undeniable. At the tenth level, it gives you the opportunity to take the Shield, which greatly increases survivability, and having invested heavily in Dust to Dust, you turn into a walking personification of the "Here comes Johnny" meme. A couple more additional categories will reward you with an infinite Paradox and an infinite Shield, whose cooldown will be less than the duration.