The Truth About Archmage "DoA: Death of Archmage"

[Luh Wyte Nazgul]

This is taken from my thread on the official forums, if you'd rather reply there here's the link

http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=48502

I'd like to have a discussion about Archmage with the community. Whenever I bring up this topic I get flamed, labeled as a troll, slandered, have ad hominem attacks thrown at me left and right, and bullied. I shouldn't feel afraid to have a discussion about a popular class in a game I'm passionate about, but sadly, I am. I know people will use it as an excuse to assassinate my character or troll me. But I'm tired of being afraid to state my opinion, and I welcome anyone to counter the points I'm about to make.

This seems like a topic that many people would consider personal. From what I've seen, people turn it into an emotional argument, rather than a discussion based on facts and proof. It always ends up with "in theory", never with proof. In this thread I will post proof, taken from the vault, tometips, and from various veteran players. This is not a troll thread. There is NO comedy to be found in anything that I write. It isn't meant to be funny. As I said, I will only state facts.

To start it off, yes, I admit that AM is a decent class. What exactly is holding it back? What do other classes have on it? How does it compare to said classes? Why is it in theory a bad class? Does it need buffs? I'll go over everything, don't worry. I want more people to see the truth. I know I've made numerous people to start to consider it. With each passing day I see more and more players start to see the class for what it truly is. I feel scared, like this thread might actually cause trouble, and like I said, when I bring this topic up around people it usually starts a flame war. I don't want that! I just want to talk about the class. The goal of all of this is to get this weak class buffed.

Let's start by going over the pros and cons of the class

Pros: Disruption Shield, Phase Door, infinite Stone Wall, and possibly one of the best stuns in the game

Cons: has to empty mana to make auto exploring safe (how much time does this actually add to a run? maybe an hour? and thats just pressing buttons to empty mana), can get one shot by a damage shield pen item, awful damage thats on par with solipsist and alchemist, has to choose between a manasurge or a movement infusion, there are times where you HAVE to play safe, or you'll die.

Now with those out of the way, we can easily put the argument most people will fall back on to rest: Madness wins. There is no proof of a legit Archmage Madness win. None, zero, nada zilch! Not even a screen shot. I've been doing this research for months now. Searching the vault, interviewing chosen players, asking around for videos and screen shots, I even befriended Mex, and we ended up theory crafting AM for hours on end. And at the end of the year what do I have? The same as what I started out with, nothing. Still no proof, only word of mouth.

Here's a clip from my Archmage interview with Mex, he's speaking nothing but the undeniable truth

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/213237799

The fact that we even have to have this conversation shows how flawed Madness is. When you see people you talk to in the chat every day win a game of nightmare, what's the first thing that you think? Probably to congratulate them, right? Same goes with insane. People don't have to cheat to win these difficulties, some people even win with without drowning! What is it that makes it so easy to believe a winner when you see it pop up in chat? Probably the fact that you've done it yourself without cheating. You can't say the same thing about Madness, though. Why isn't there a screen shot of an Archmage winning the game? All we have is char sheets which can easily be faked. People can easily modify init files and modify the monster AI, monster generation, item generation, and randboss talent selection in your favor. People can easily cheat engine themselves 100% resists and take no damage the entire game. People can vault modded items. There's actually endless ways to fake a winning char sheet without a cheating flag.

Why hasn't there been a video of an Archmage winning the final fight on Madness? Wouldn't you be proud of your win? After all, a Madness win is an amazing feat of strength in this game. Why is it that the only visual media out there is of Possessors? A class that wasn't made to be balanced, it's just a fun donator class that's on par with adventurer. There's plenty of videos of even FULL easy-insane runs out there. You can look on youtube and see hundreds of ToME vids, and you can look on twitch and see lots of people streaming this game all the time, winning on every single difficulty! No Madness Archmages though, huh? Strange right? When in theory they're supposedly so powerful. These questions aren't being answered, they're simply ignored or countered with a meme/trollish insult. There's always an excuse. It takes too long, it's too tedious, it's not worth it, etc.. but in theory Archmage can win Madness! Sorry, but that's not good enough anymore. People aren't falling for that anymore. It's easily countered, too.

The proof we actually DO have is Mex WAS streaming Madness Archmage, for about 2 weeks straight. We've all heard the "in theory" argument before, right? But what happens when we see the almighty Archmage live in action? This was THE Madness Archmage. Hundreds of people witnessed this, this isn't just me making up numbers, there's actual proof on Twitch. I was there every day cheering him on and hoping to see my friend win. We didn't see all the great things we read about Archmage, we saw their weakness exposed. We saw that all it takes is a dispersion to end a run. We saw how damage shield pen weapons can invalidate a 30k aegis shield. We witnessed history. We witnessed the deathless will of a player who DIDN'T think Madness isn't worth it because it takes too long, because it's tedious, or because it isn't worth it. We witnessed the Death of Archmage.

So that isn't an excuse that will fly anymore! There ARE players who want to win Madness. Two players went on to win Madness in front of 100's of people on Twitch. We've entered a new era where documented proof isn't just welcomed, it's almost needed to validate a Madness win. The "Archmage Madness win theory" cannot be used anymore to rank this class higher than any other class until there is surefire proof of a Madness win. It isn't too tedious, too long, or too annoying to deal with. The easiest way to counter this excuse is the simple truth: they just can't do it, no matter how OP the class is. After years someone would have came up with proof for their win, it is in theory the most powerful class with ALL the tools to win Madness, right? Wrong.

"The majority of classes can complete Insane, however some will find it harder than others, as such the list is based mainly on this." I will base all my points on this. The fact that EVERY class can win insane, without exploits, without using addons to avoid patrols, without cheating, and without savescumming.

It's now time to compare ALL the classes pros and cons to Archmage's. At the end we will see just how badly each class beat Archmage in the three categories of speed, dps, and difficulty. I'll give a sort review of each class better than Archmage. The only classes I don't have experience on is Reaver, Alchemist, and Necro, so those will be excluded. Let us begin!

Berserker

What does archmage have on Berserker? Pulverizing Auger, Phase Door, AoE

Berserker has a legendary combo of fearless cleave into stunning blow. You can follow up with any attack and the monster will most likely be dead. If it runs it stands no chance surviving a few more fearless cleaves. An ogre berserker with ICCTW and a few STR items will most likely find a warrior heroism at some point of the game, which will on average give you +36 all stats and 1300 life. Say you have 1700 hp, which is kinda low, but still. Nothing is going to kill you when you have heroism up. Did something actually bring you to negative hp? If bloodcaller doesn't heal you to full in a few strikes, pop a salve that will heal you for 1600. Or use unstoppable, which makes you invincible for 7 turns.

Oh yeah, funny thing about Berserker, it has a move SPECIFICALLY made to take out Archmages. Is that pesky Skeleton Magus Archmage in Halfing ruins giving you trouble? Did he just pop a shield? Use Shattering Blow. At just tier 3, you have an 80% chance of shattering his shield. Mages don't stand a chance against a berserker. Pair this move with a weapon that has 75% damage shield pen and it's gg. Keep in mind, any berserker randboss can also have shattering blow and a 75% damage shield pen weapon. Better hope one doesn't ambush you and stun you or you might end up feeling like the archmage from Skryim who got one shotted by a random magic blast. Berserker is tanky enough to auto explore the whole game too. They also quadruple AM's damage because they're able to use melee weapons. Berserker doesn't need disruption shield, aegis, or infinite stone wall. All they need is heroism and a nice melee weapon and they can speed through the game and make quick work of the final bosses.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Archer

Archer is better than Archmage is every single way, it's not debatable. I don't think I need to waste time going into every specific detail. If you've played both classes, you'll know what I'm saying. One class can go through the entire game auto exploring without a single care and one shotting every single monster (or withing 5 turns for tough bosses), the other can't. Play both classes back to back if you want. Headshot into vital shot opener kills almost everything instantly. If it's a randboss, just use sentinel and it won't be able to attack you before its dead. Intuitive shots can block entire flurrys. Concealment is better than disruption shield on every fight except the last fight. You can make the argument that the last fight is the only one that matters, but you can still silence, disarm, blind, stun, and cripple Elandar and kill him within a few turns. No disruption shield needed.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Brawler

What does Archmage have on Brawler? Feather Wind, Pulverizing Auger

A TLDR; Brawler can take any single monster in the game and render is useless, slowing it by 72%, silencing it, and taking 30% reduced damage from it. Clinch alone is better than Disruption Shield, but that isn't all Brawler has.

You thought dispersion was good? Meet combo kick. It will take off 5 sustains and also deal damage to the monster. 15k aegis shields? Meet a crit 3k open palm block shield. Archmages 50% pen for all the elements? Meet Brawlers 50% phys pen. Essence of speed? Meet blinding speed. Burning shock? Meet uppercut.
Did an Archmage get the drop on you and got a burning shock off? Don't worry, unflinching resolve will take care of that, after that, you've got plenty of mobility options to close the gap. Once you get off the clinch it's over. Oh yeah, you can also axe kick so he can't phase door or tp away.
Brawler is one of the easiest classes to get your first win on, they have literally everything you need to pull off a fast and clean win. Archmage will still be in Reknor while you're killing the back up guardians.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Rogue

What does Archmage have on Rogue? Feather Wind, Pulverizing Auger, Phase Door, AoE
This is debatable, but Rogue is better than Archmage because it deals more damage and can win faster. The same heroism argument as Berserker. You can always have a die at - with heroism/rogue's brew. Rogue's only problem is closing a very long ranged gap, but charms can make up for it. You can make the argument that Archmage is better until Rogue reaches 100% stun immunity.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Shadowblade

What does Archmage have on Shadowblade? Built in pen

Shadowblade is better than Archmage. It can get very high speed and it's melee so it does more damage. Nothing more has to be said as it's also a "theoretical Madness winner" which makes it better in the difficulties people actually win on a daily basis.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Marauder

What does Archmage have on Marauder? Nothing.

Same as Rogue & Shadowblade, Marauder is a melee with very high attack speeds and damage. It also has unstoppable which makes it invincible. Some could argue that Marauder is actually one of the best classes in the game, while Archmage isn't even the best of the mages.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Wyrmic

What does Archmage have on Wyrmic? Built in pen (though it's debatable since Wyrmic can gain a tiny amount from talents)

Wyrmic is currently one of THE best melee classes in the game, there's no disputing this. There's even rumors of a so called "Wyrmic Madness win", but again, we're not basing anything on "theoretical wins" or "proof of concept wins". Why is this class so much better than Archmage you ask? Three things - Lightning Speed, Burrow, and Icewall. Actually four things. We're not going to leave out the fact that Wyrmic has 8+ strikes that deal over 200% weapon damage. They have the fearless cleave into stunning blow combo. Towards the end of the game simply using the Swallow talent will one shot most monsters. Fungus will always keep you topped off at full health, and if you find a sun paladin escort, you can possibly have the most health of any character in the game other than a Bulwark with Last Stand up. The class can autoexplore throughout the entire game and NEVER be in danger. They will always be able to escape whatever situation they face, even if it seems dire at first.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

[Luh Wyte Nazgul]

Oozemancer

What does Archmage have over Oozemancer? Nothing.

Oozemancer has it all. They've got the tankiness, they've got the damage, and they can eve achieve immortality to an extent while doing everything better than an Archmage. In fact, if you're on an Archmage, I'm guessing you're dreading running into an AM Oozemancer randboss while playing Archmage. Oozemancer is possibly the easiest class in the game, and a great choice for both new players and veterans. It can autoexplore. It has decent damage for a mindcaster. Once you get their rotation down, you can spam it as fast as you can which makes it feel like you're doubling their damage per turn output. Don't worry, this won't put you in any danger either. Leave's tide, Mitosis, Antimagic Shield, and Fungus are all better than Disruption Shield. You can even have all four of them up at the same time, you won't be taking any damage any time soon with that combo. Not much else needs to be said.
Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Stone Warden

What does Archmage have on Stone Warden? Phase Door

Stone Warden almost has it all. They've got the tankiness, they've got the insane damage output, they've even got the infinite stone wall trick. All they're lacking in is mobility. This call can speed through the game one shotting everything with it's radius 7 magical Windblade. If it ever gets in trouble it has stone wall. It can dig through walls in combat. It can stun, but it can also silence and disarm for 8 turns.

Sure, they've got mobility issues, which can easily be fixed with charms. But think to yourself, does the class REALLY need a gap closer? Would this break an already overpowered class? If anything survives the initial Windblade, they're in for a surprise when they get stunned, silenced, and disarmed. The monster will usually die to the stun with how hard it hits.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Sun Paladin

What does Archmage have on Sun Paladin? Phase Door, Feather Wind

EASILY one of the best melee classes in the game. Gates Drowning? Check. Fearless Cleave?check. Wave of power is possibly the best melee skill, pressing z + wave of power makes clearing the entire game a breeze. Second life is a decent life saver. We haven't even got to their best skills, though. Let's take a look at the Crusader tree, in my opinion one of the most powerful in the game.

Absorption Strike - 246% weapon damage and 19% damage reduction. This will one shot most monsters. Archmage has nothing like this skill. A spell from an Archmage will barely even deal 19% of the monsters total life.

Mark of Light - 56% lifesteal. Nothing else to be said. This talent is better than Disruption Shield/Aegis and works great with heroism.

Flash of the Blade - Decent damage with invincibility for 1 turn. Nothing else to be said, it's op.

Forgetting something? Oh yeah, Suncloak. This is basically invincibility, speed, and cdr. This also can be extended with timeless, getting even faster Flash of the Blades and Mark of Lights. In comparison to this class, Archmage is... pathetic. THIS is what a truly overpowered class looks like. We don't even have to bring the Light/the new chant tree into the picture. It'd be an overkill and just embarrass Archmage even more.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Anorithil

what does Archmage have on Anorithil? Absolutely nothing!

It's quite funny, take a look at how many trees in total Ano has. Then look at how many Archmage has. Anorithil only needs 4 total trees to become an amazing mage, Archmage has to spend every cat point on unlocks to become half decent. Ano only has 3 attack moves, and two of them aren't even that great. So what about the class makes them a better mage? Circles. They can silence every monster and keep monsters/projectiles from getting anywhere near them. They don't have to worry about an archer killing them in one hit with a damage shield pen weapon. If anything closes the gap? Confuse and blind them. Stun them. Use a jumpgate. The options are endless. Gates drowning? The light tree originally belonged to them, now when you think of Light what is the class the comes up first? Usually it's Archmage. But make no mistake, even though Archmage got Light nerfed, Ano is still the better mage even with nerfed Light tree! The new chants/hymns tree works great, too.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Doombringer

What does Archmage have on Doombringer? Nothing

Doombringer has it all, a stun, silence, multiple gap closers, built in stun immune, full heal, fearscape, global speed, damage reduction, stam and hp heal, and a full cleanse. With that said, I think it'd be overkill to write anything more. Doombringer is better than Archmage in every single way.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Demonologist

What does Archmage have on Demo? Phase Door.

Way easier than AM. Way faster. Deals WAY more damage. This class doesn't have much at first glance, just a few basic trees and some worthless locked trees. I don't feel like wasting too much time on this class, going over all the demon seeds would take a while. They're melee, which is automatically better than a mage, they've got Osmosis Shield, and they've got demon seeds. I'll keep it short and sweet just like the Doombringer. Btw, both of the Defilers are paid classes. Making them automatically better than a free and outdated class.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Doomed

What does Archmage have on doomed? Nothing.

Doomed is a very underrated class, it's only problem is it's damage, which at times can actually end up being decent. Shadow Transposition gives them great mobility. Ruined Earth & Merge combo? 100% damage reduction. Shadow Empathy & Ruined Earth combo? 100% damage reduction. Wayyy better than Disruption Shield. Deflection/Anti Magic Shield combo makes most magic damage you take negligible. Madness is a decent cc.

SHADOWS. Arguably the best summon in the game (other than hounds.) They do so much for you. Simply use Focus on a monster and hide behind a wall and press the rest button. White, Rare, Unique, and Randbosses will all die to this tactic no matter what. Killing said monster faster than you could in actual combat. It's a great time saver. Once you get your damage up you can help your shadows too, and maybe even start one shotting some monsters with your own spells.

Conclusion: Slightly better than Archmage

Paradox Mage

What does Archmage have on Paradox Mage? Nothing.

Stunlock that will ALWAYS hit, even on Madness. Infinite damage/healing with Attenuate. Triple bathe in light with clones. REDACTED scumming. Temporal Reprieve that can even be extended. Infinite Stone Wall. Nice damage with Echoes. Entropy. Webs of Fate. Barrier cycling. Reality smearing. Documented proof of PM getting further than AM on Madness. Easy first insane win. Easy bikini achievement. It isn't necessary to go into that much detail about the class. Just by going over their skills on tometips tells you all you need to know, and shows you the superiority of PM. Archmage never stood a chance. I'll keep this one short, sort of like a mercy killing. I do have another 6000+ word document saved explaining exactly how much better PM is compared to AM, but I'll save that for another time.

Conclusion: THE Archmage killer

Temporal Warden

What does Archmage have on Temporal Warden? No memory leak from Warden's call, Feather Wind, Pulverizing Auger

Temporal warden has hounds, which are arguably the best summon in the game. You can play them excactly like a doomed, but if you care to use your 100% phys dmg 70% phys pen bow you can also one shot every monster you come across. This is a physically ranged damage dealer, making it automatically a better and easier class than Archmage. Not much else needs to be said.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

Mindslayer

What does Archmage have on Mindslayer? Disruption Shield, Pulverizing Auger

I've died 3 times from autoexploring on a Mindslayer, I'm talking about died just from pressing z, not a bad situation it puts me in. The class deals INSANE damage but I think it's one of the squishiest classes in the game. Two psiblades + Sawrd. Instantly better.

Conclusion: Slightly better than Archmage

Possessor

What does Archmage have on Possessor? Nothing.

Possessor beat Madness twice, Archmage didn't.

I'll leave a quote from A VERY experienced veteran player.

"Is there a ToME character that could even possibly EVEN TOUCH Shalore Possessor? Let alone defeat him. And I’m not talking about Normal Adventure Shalore Possessor. I’m not talking about Madness Roguelike Shalore Possessor either. I’m talking about Doomed Shade of Slasul Madness Roguelike Shalore Possessor with the Arcane Combat and Aegis talent sets (with the digging abilities and being capable of both Aegis and Bathe In Light shields), equipped with his Murderblade, perfect merchant randart gauntlets, control of the Earthrunes and Wrap of Stone, with Dreadmaster DNA implanted in him so he has wall walking and can perform Unlimited Combat Resets while being an expert in Timeless chaining and Projection freecasting."

Conclusion: Death of Archmage

Psyshot

Psyshot has everything, with inner demons randomly thrown in there. Archmage can't touch this class. The only thing that's going to be able to take down a Psyshot is a lucky shoot down from an Archer npc, which is an exploit when used by NPCs. Solidify air means you'll always be able to escape, and you'll always be able to retreat to the next level, even if you've just killed a monster. Vaporous step is a great escape (which also halves the monsters stun resist). Improved gestalt is a free instant shield that comes up on a 5 turn cd, in theory giving you more EHP than an Archmage with a 20k aegis shield. Forced gestalt is one of the best moves in the game. You can run up to a pack of monsters and drain them of all power, while you will gain 200+ phys and mindpower. Even works on the final bosses. Automatic Cloak Tessellation is amazing, much MUCH better than Disruption shield. I've got it up to 70% deflect rate. It also gives you flat damage reduction. Embedded Restoration Systems is a nice instant/free 1k heal every 5 turns. Archmage has to cast their heal and waste a turn. Mechanical Arms deals great damage while giving monsters a 33% damage reduction debuff. They also get a free injector. Access to the tinker tree from birth.

Oh, did I fail to mention that this class is a RANGED PHYS DAMAGE DEALER AND can be played a melee as proven by various players? That means their shoot talent will hit for 6k+ in the endgame while being pretty much invincible. This class is perfectly designed to replace Archmage in every single way possible. Psyshot is godmode.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archmage killer.

So what was the point of this thread? All I ask for is that Archmage receives a small QoL buff: the ability to set your mana to not regen after a certain point, similar to how chronomancers can set their preferred paradox.

Also, please feel free to counter any of the points I made. If you think I misrepresented a certain class as being better than Archmage, feel free to prove me wrong. I've been waiting for months for anyone to prove to me that Archmage is a top tier class. As I've said before, I'm willing to play said class and race against you on an Archmage in insane/rl. No drowning and no start scumming whatsoever. ONLY official addons except vault. Fully streamed run and whoever kills the final bosses in High Peak wins. This method will provide proof of Archmage's superiority over said class.

[berandro]

Wow, talk about being obsessed...

[Bozobub]

*yawn*

All that blither, yet you can't comprehend the simple fact that lack of a video proves nothing at all? FFS, what if their PC isn't a fine enough grade of wood for such things, or they simply don't make ego-recordings of video games =p..?

Most of us have better things to do, than assist you in massaging your ego. Believe exactly what you like.

[Furnoodle]

Holy carp, is ToME's community all like this?

[Bozobub]

Wow; nice double-down on Full Sphincter Mode™. Are they all nice and puckery?

YOU just want someone to validate your rant, and/or yell at people who don't agree with you. Get hence; obvious troll is obvious.

[Luh Wyte Nazgul]

Originally posted by Bozobub:

Wow; nice double-down on Full Sphincter Mode™. Are they all nice and puckery?

YOU just want someone to validate your rant, and/or yell at people who don't agree with you. Get hence; obvious troll is obvious.

That's sad. How is this a troll..? I said it's a discussion. You came in here trolling. Every post in here except the OP has been trolling. Everyone talked trash to me instead of focusing on the topic.

[Morphic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM

On a slightly more serious note; I always thought Wyrmic was good. I remember years back people would scoff or laugh at me for saying Wyrmic is a great choice for Melee...

[Bozobub]

Originally posted by archmage killer 161:

Originally posted by Bozobub:

Wow; nice double-down on Full Sphincter Mode™. Are they all nice and puckery?

YOU just want someone to validate your rant, and/or yell at people who don't agree with you. Get hence; obvious troll is obvious.

That's sad. How is this a troll..? I said it's a discussion. You came in here trolling. Every post in here except the OP has been trolling. Everyone talked trash to me instead of focusing on the topic.

Try rereading your own posts from the beginning; the chip on your shoulder is a mile wide.

@Setzway: Exactly so.

[Syzy]

Neat!

[Luh Wyte Nazgul]

Originally posted by Bozobub:

Originally posted by archmage killer 161:

That's sad. How is this a troll..? I said it's a discussion. You came in here trolling. Every post in here except the OP has been trolling. Everyone talked trash to me instead of focusing on the topic.

Try rereading your own posts from the beginning; the chip on your shoulder is a mile wide.

@Setzway: Exactly so.

This has nothing to do with me and everything to do with the class

[Berenthas]

Why the hate when this guy put so much effort into such a big post? I dont get it.

And bozobub, is there a single thread on steam forums where you don't attack people? I swear, I don't remember seeing a post were you weren't raging against one person or another.

On the subject at hand : archmage has a lot of issues, kudos for trying to put it right by raising awareness!

[Micbran]

I too am a victim of bozobub. This man is... rabid. He comes out of his way to attack me.

[Luh Wyte Nazgul]

Originally posted by Micbran:

I too am a victim of bozobub. This man is... rabid. He comes out of his way to attack me.

Why is he always attacking people?

[Splorky]

I'm not very experienced but I just want to say that your dedication is admirable. Thank you for exposing me to this view. I was looking forward to the comparison of Necromancer but I didn't see it. I assume the class isn't good enough for madness? Anyway though, thanks again!

[Berenthas]

Necromancer has low damage but a tedious combo that can lead to near invincibility. Does it remind you of anyone? ^^