Top 5 and Bottom 5 Pretenders

[SpiralRazor]

I get the real feeling that most of the Pretender chassis arent used...there just seems to be some choices that are no brainers for each age and faction, if available. There are also pretenders that are always going to be good choices, regardless of faction.

Why would anyone use the Crone, unless they really wanted to challenge themselves lol?

[Nalbem]

The Crone has extra accessory slots and is dirt cheap. She's not bad, just unimpressive. If your nation wants a rainbow and doesn't need an awakened Great Sage for research, she's not that bad of an option.

That said, top 5 pretenders will probably be monsters/inmobiles, with the Earth Snake and Myrmecoleon being the most notable ones as they are the best awake expanders in the game. Irminsul is also very popular for nations that want a major N bless. Fountain of Blood with B+N or B+E isn't bad either for the price. Monolith also has some pretty decent paths for blesses. The new Hooded Spirit looks great too. Liches and Demiliches make for pretty decent pretenders too, being both safe to use as combatants/casters in your dominion and having good access to path combinations.

As for bad, most players will tell you Titan Chassi are not great. They tend to be too expensive for just magical diversity (rainbows are better at having large number of paths and inmobiles are better for high paths) while being weak in combat with no equipment or research (monsters are better at that). Most nations don't care for rainbows too much, either, since they appeal the most to nations that have many paths but no depth on them (Tien, Arco, LA Pythium...) so that they can make the best of the large number of gems they will find building boosters.

That said, most of the time it doesn't matter "what is the best Pretender chassis", but rather "what do I want/need my pretender to do". Sometimes a Titan would be a good option, and sometimes you might want an inmobile large bless. Patala is a good example of this. They can work with a B/A pretender (such as a fountain of blood) or forgo their B summons and get an awake expander to shore their poor early game.

[Zonk]

Why would anyone use the Crone, unless they really wanted to challenge themselves lol?

The crone has MM1 and extra enc compared to other rainbows, but she exchanges her body slot for extra misc ones. You don't think that might be useful for some strategies?

As for no brainers, the Earth Serpent might still be good, even if it did get a 20 point cost raise. Rather than see it removed or further nerfed I would prefer for nations that lack good expansion choices to get them.

[Mormacil]

I don't know a full top and bottom 5 but these are regarded as great most of the time: Irminsul, Hooded Spirit, Monolith, Cyclops and the Earth Snake. While Crone, Forge Lord, ♥♥♥♥♥ Queen and Sea Dragon are pretty meh.

I don't agree that there universally good pretenders though, it depends to much on your general tactic to make some work. Well maybe the Earth serpent but for him you want a high earth bless which is kinda wasted if your mages aren't sacred.

As for our crone, roleplaying I guess.

[Zonk]

Originally posted by Mormacil:

Forge Lord

Maybe he should get a % forging discount rather than a fixed one?
It fits with forging powerful items and artifacts rather than lots of trinkets.

[Mormacil]

I think that is actually quite a good idea. I mean he's an expensive titan with an affliction right out of the game. He doesn't scream Pick me, pick me.

[Zonk]

I put the idea in the 'Changes you'd like to see thread'.

Some other pretenders I feel are noteworthy, not necessarily for their power level:

Floating Mind: dom2, W1S1, aquatic with only 2 misc slots and can't really expand because prot 0, but costs 30 points (10 for R'lyeh), which seems amazingly cheap for a pure-scales, non-diversity build. I don't know if people actually use it, but it looks to me like it has a lot of potential.
Maybe autocalc isn't taking into account mind slime and it's meant to cost a bit more?

Great Mother: I don't like her much. N2E1 is good of course but often you have better choices, and she's a trampler with base enc 4. Maybe if she had recuperation instead (or in addition to) regeneration, or claymen summon/battle escort (though as she cannot summon them because no W it might be strange)

Earth Made Flesh, Baphomet, Colossal Fetish, Golden pillar, Devourer of Souls: Not much to say on their power level or viability currently, but I like how thematic they feel. The first two having 4 rather than 3 magic helps make them feel special. Wish there were more pretenders like that. Devourer of Souls is also very cheap.

Protogenos, Father of the Sea: I like these a lot even if, again, I'm not sure how useful they are. I think the potential to teleport to get around the 1-province per month limitation UW and provide support to your armies is interesting.

Svartalf Mastersmith: I think the concept is interesting, but I'm not sure it's actually viable. Also, wish the ring did *something* other than taking up a misc slot.

Man-Eater: This looks like a very good pretender if you want E4B4. Blood means you can use feast to recover from afflictions (as long as it's not afflictions/dementia). I also appreciated the Manticore from Dom3 making a comeback in some form (I hope the Mother of Tuathas comes back too)

Vampire Queen: Very cool and I like how she can actually expand despite her low HP, if you want to use her for that. I do wish she was dom2 though - seems fitting as she is a superhuman immortal.

Annunaki of Growth and Rebirth: My favorite pretender when playing Ur. N2E1 is good even if you already have them as national paths and you get some chaff + free entangling effect for later fighting.

Son of the Fallen: Very fitting for the nations that get him, and he gets coolness points for being fully naked, but B3 isn't really good in this context. Wish he had something else (pathcost 40 since the Grigori had a mix of paths?)

[Shinuyama]

Top Five

Giant Stone Head: He hungers for ulmites.

Erf Snek: There is a map that is just a picture of an erf snek with provinces on it.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Batman: Never has assassinating your foes with a titan been more entertaining than when he also has the head of a bat.

♥♥♥♥♥ Queen: You, too, can rule the hallways of Pantokrator High.

Virtue: Most virtuous.

Bottom Five

Dragon(s): Once were cool, now the least cool.

Protogenos of the Sea: For a giant floating head with crab claws, he is just unexciting.

Demon Macaw: Not being as badass as the Hun Balam.

Great Enchantress: Too mainstream.

Allfather: Too expense, not enough just as planned.

[Red Bat]

In my experience, the cheaper monster pretenders seem to be outright better than all the others unless you absolutely need certain magic paths. Devourer is a good example, as I think his cost is something like 70 while he comes with 2 magic paths, loads of health, and what essentially amounts to a instant kill attack. Thrice Horned Boar is another low cost monster with 2 good magic path accesses and trample. Then you got the weaker ones with regeneration like Solar Serpent and Wyrm who can take on the majority of indie provinces on their own. Or you could go for one of the ones who ♥♥♥♥♥ out damage like Hound of Hades. If you don't need another type of pretender for a specific strategy, in my experience you just about always want a monster.

[Zonk]

The thing is titans mostly cost more than monsters because they have:

* 3 instead of 2 magic points
* 3 instead of 2 dominion (which also means they can't be disciples)
* More slots (I remember every slot is worth 10-15 points for autocalc).

While I still see why titans aren't popular (not being able to expand early on sucks), I'think it's hard to not see the slots as very useful in the late game when you can forge a lot of useful items.

Maybe this is a meta thing?
I often read about games not getting to the highest research levels; the ones I play in do, and I never regretted taking a titan (though most of my opponents seem to have gone for rainbows or monsters). I can see titans looking plain bad (rather than just lackluster) if you play in communities which strongly care about early expansion.


Also note that that in addition to immobiles/titans/monsters/rainbows, there are the 'messengers' (Prince of Death, Moloch, Gorgon, Virtue, the Ahuras, Hooded Spirit...) who seem like a hybrid:
like monsters they are mostly dominion 2 and can usually expand, but like titans they have 3 total magic and usually full slots.
They also tend to have very good mobility (usually flying, sometimes teleportation).
Very expensive (and even higher cost than titans if you want a non-innate path) but maybe worth getting so you have a pretender that can take provinces early on and stay very relevant in the later parts of the game?

(Also I remember Illwinter saying that at some point there would be a 'messenger patch' adding more of them, especially for Middle Eastern nations)

[Shinuyama]

Titans cost more for the possibility of midgame defensive SCing. They are only worth the points if that's something you intend to do (defensive SC deployment, win by diplo and vulturing). People don't take them because even with a defensive vulture strategy they are not the best choice for that. Especially if they don't have all the paths you want/need.

Rainbows are currently competitive with expanders. Depends on nation, obviously, and situation and etc but certain types of boosters (notably) and summonable commanders (less notably) are worth taking a rainbow for. As usual, various blesses remain competitive as well.

[jBrereton]

Top commanders:

Myrmecoeleon (sp?) - the F/E African #homerealm pretender with a bunch of attacks that costs practically nothing, expands well, casts a bunch of good magic and is overall pretty great.

Man Eater - as above but E/B which gives access to the exceptional Demon Knight summons and a pretty solid troop bless with the +str, plus breaks just about anyone into blood.

Earth Snake - underpriced, very high prot, recovers from afflictions, massive HP, can go underwater, totally fine PG choice.

That goony ♥♥♥♥ teleporting celtic guy with a hood - good paths, solid pricing for his slots and magic power.

Statue of War - FE is a great combination for aggressive sacreds, brings in free units, pretty cheap and no astral 'hole' that you need to spend points on to avoid getting trashed by some 35 gold sauro prick.

Worst:

- The vast majority of 200+ point titans. Their slots and Dom 3 cost a bit much.

- Dragons of any flavour are basically trash compared to an Earth Snake and have a horrible habit of taking wounds from shortbows and daggers unless you take awe on them which is generally a waste of points.

[zest]

I think new magic paths on titans should drop to 60 points(more then immobiles, less then monsters) and more of them should sport 'rare' powerful combos like FW(rune smasher and strong double bless), EB(bloodstones & demon knights), EW(powerful double bless), NB(powerful double bless), and ES(crystal gear).

SCs aren't what they once were and titans need a new niche. Their relative abundance combined with their 3 dominion & multi paths could make them a natural choice for unconventional double blesses(aka anything besides N9E9, S9W9, or B9x9 which are the main once the small pool of immobiles most nations have access to make options).

[salva早晨享用的咖啡]

gud most
1. erf snek - expand to easy
2. blood fountain - b9 + scales
3. trice horned boar - super cheap recuperation pig w/ E & N path
4. arch druid - rainbow pertender, superor imo to master enchanter
5. monolith - unkillable telepoting rock

baad most
1 - 3 dragon(water, fire, nature)
4+. humanoid titans - design point much cost. not worth imo

[dyslexicfaser]

Originally posted by Zonk:

I put the idea in the 'Changes you'd like to see thread'.

Some other pretenders I feel are noteworthy, not necessarily for their power level:

Floating Mind: dom2, W1S1, aquatic with only 2 misc slots and can't really expand because prot 0, but costs 30 points (10 for R'lyeh), which seems amazingly cheap for a pure-scales, non-diversity build. I don't know if people actually use it, but it looks to me like it has a lot of potential.
Maybe autocalc isn't taking into account mind slime and it's meant to cost a bit more?

The Floating Mind is pretty amazing as a dirt-cheap S9 pretender. But it can't expand at all. Period. It dies to bog-standard Atlantean indies.

I also think national rainbow pretenders deserve discussion. Their paths are less helpful in that they're pretty much the same paths as the rest of the nation gets, but they usually get the cheap god discount and many of them are a cut above the more mediocre rainbows like Crone and Enchanter and so on.

I quite like Lanka's national pretender, for example. N/D/B is a perfectly good bless for Lanka, and she can afford N9D4B4 and still get a lot of scales thanks to taking Turmoil 3.

[SpiralRazor]

All helpful, thanks. Ive had good success with Snek, and made both a Kraken and Gorgon pretender that was always useful.

As for the national pretenders, I liked the lizard king for sauro and the Oni dude for Ghost Goblins.