Reliably expanding with Monkies: Bandar, Atavi, Markata

[Lucid]

For monkey nations (Kailasa, Lanka, Bandar Log, Patala) - Is there a reliable way to expand using base monkey troops - not using national sacred / elite troops? I have tried with poor success.

What is types of troop composition and numbers are effective for efficient expansion? How do you script? Are there strong scale requirements?

[Hawk]

the war elephants (MA Bandar log and LA Patala) work in groups of 3-4 on most weaker indy poptypes, until you can afford more and then go for groups of 5-10 which should be enough to defeat 90% of indy provinces.

[Lucid]

Good point - I probably dont use elephants enough.

That said, speficially - I'm wondering if anyone has found a way to use the monkey troops themselves effectively during early expansion

[Hawk]

welp, if someone refers you to one please post them in the guide overview so I can add it :)

I've personally had problems dealing with F9W9 kailasa using their sacred archers - but that was around midgame. If I had to make a bless up on the spot it'd be closer to F4E4B9 to make use of their excellent thug and SC chassis whilst still helping kailasa pack a punch,

Without a bless I'd probably force myself into one of two potential tactics for expansion: markata spam, and taking the losses as acceptable costs to reach midgame or the fully armored bandar faux-elites who expand meekly but once decent buffs come online become real elites

[Gregstrom]

Markata are a decent screening force, and their good Def lets them last longer than you'd expect in melee (although they're dreadful at dealing damage). They're a handy screen for things like heavy cavalry.

Atavi archers are pretty useful under most circumstances since they're cheap.

The Bandar with sticks and stones are surprisingly useful as missile support.

[Staythecourse]

All three monkey nations (or 4 including Lanka) can expand using sacreds if there is a halfway decent bless, though Patala is seriously marginal. I assume you aren't talking about that though. And as mentioned, MA Bandar and Patala can expand with elephants.

EA Kailasa can expand with archers. Atavi archers are dirt cheap and massable, and are highly effective against the EA's mass of tribals, barbarians, light infantry, lizards, woodsmen, etc, in conjunction with shielded indy commanders and infantry/cavalry to decoy archers. Your starting army and turn 1 recruits plus prophet should be able to take an indy province that can recruit said indy shielded commanders/troops, as smite can take care of a few heavy infantry. Afterwards, Kailasa should mostly ignore heavy infantry/cav/armored Amazons during initial expansion. It's not as if Kailasa needs the resources, and it can concentrate forces to deal with these provinces later (i.e. markata to soak lances, and Bandars or sacreds to crack armor). This strategy is recommended even if Kailasa took a bless, since the need for magic leaders seriously hampers expansion relying solely on sacreds.

The same archer strategy works for Lanka, though it's a silly Lanka that didn't take a bless, and Lanka can pull off sacred expansion much more efficiently than Kailasa making it less useful. Lanka will probably expand mostly with sacreds, supplemented by one or two archer parties to deal or help deal with barbarians/lizards/ichtyds.

The great proliferation of shields and armor in the MA and especially the LA makes archer expansion highly unreliable in the MA and impossible in the LA. It's theoretically possible to expand using the armored vanara swordsmen if care is taken to decoy away archers using indies, but there's really no reason to do so. Sacreds (in the MA) and elephants in either age are just so much more effective that it's no contest.

[Flow]

Hey,

These War Elephants are AMAZING, if you script them correctly and they step on things instead of letting their thick hides absorb a lot of damage.

NuclearMonkee's video 'The Elephant Whisperer' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s47o6GJ9WU), explains really well how you can effectively expand with tramplers.

Personally, I use a combination of elephants and Atavi infantry for my expansion parties for MA Bandar Log (although I don't really know if these are the optimal monkey types...)

As said above... Expanding with normal monkey troops is just less cost effective most of the time. Try to get a handle on the elephants or find out how you can use your nation's sacreds effectively for expansion.

[rhizome23]

I really just want a reason to use my DoW named "Naan Combatant."

[rhizome23]

But seriously...A9D9 seems to work best in SP to me. Loin cloths are worse than bucklers when it comes to arrows. STFU and archer bait. I know. I really want to make Kailasa work, but they either just plain suck or I'm just plain bad. I'm leaning to the latter. I too would love some tips.

Where's Shinuyama? He at least seems to half way know what he's talking about when he's not toxically destroying every thread that he enters and I think that I recall him hinting at how he had ideas about playing Kailasa.

P.S.: Plz no Stellar Cascades Spam

[Morsigil]

Kailasa may not be for you. They do not suck and you know how to make them not suck, but you said you're not interested in playing that way.

[Gregstrom]

Expanding reliably without sacreds is genuinely very difficult for monkeys. They lack shields, armour, often morale, and while they have a range of tools in their non-sacred box none of them add up to make a generalised solution to expansion. It can probably be done reliably by boxing exceeding clever with army composition and placement, but I an far from sure that it can be done both reliably and quickly.

[Staythecourse]

Scales, low bless, and masses of S1s is the most obvious way to play Kailasa.

If you don't want that though, try taking a thug bless for Yakshas. Due to not being STR, Kailasa will end up with tons of Yakshas; E4s and S1s are excellent casters, while the others make solid thugs with minimal gear (frostbrand + vine shield) and a thug bless + buffs. They aren't amazing long term with neither mobility options nor stealth, but the thing is that with how early Kailasa can get them out, there is a window before thug counters become ubiquitous. Expand with archers and skip the sacred troops for the early game except to deal with things archers can't handle (elephants, heavy cav, heavy infantry, nonCrystal Amazons).

Trying to double bless the sacred troops, or even worse the sacred archers, is a huge exercise in futility. You get tanked scales and troops that are good against indies but not much else, and expansion is an enormous hassel getting leaders and priests that gives barely more territory than expanding with monkey archers and completely kills year 1 research to boot. Kailasa must have earth meld researched and a few Yakshas recruited by the end of year 1, or it will fold instantly against any sort of Rush.

Eventually, in the late middle game, thug bless + communioned/summoned priests for Divine Bless + protection buffs + Celestial Music turns the crappy 30g recruit anywhere sacreds into absurd murder machines. Decent scales at this point to crank them out beats double bless anyday.

Also, try out megaMaws. Take an E4 Yaksha, give it a Master Crystal/Earth Boots/E gems, and 8 monkey communion slaves. Script Earth Power, Mawsx4. E9 Maws of the Earth is hilarious to watch, capable of hitting anywhere on the battlefield from the back, huge AOE, for 20+ AP damage.

[rhizome23]

Thanks gurus. I meant guys.

[stuttrboy]

Kailasa is pretty awesome with a water bless but they need a ton of magic fast.

[Lucid]

Good discussion, seems the conclusion is correct scripting nor large quantities of troops seem to make monkies viable expanders. (Though most nations have other expansion options..)