soooooo.... Serious Sam 5?

[Essy]

When d'you reckon we'll first hear about it, I want MORE DANG IT

[Netsa]

I remember Netricsa's lines more than Sam's in FE/SE. He doesn't talk that much in those games, so I don't remember him being super happy, not in FE at least. Maybe it could be linked to Netricsa being in his head?

Originally posted by Antroid:

I thought the character deaths in 4 made sense since a lot of them die in SS3, so it's mostly just the reality of the war/resistance that everyone just gradually dies, and humanity is being whittled down to extinsion. I dont have a problem with everyone but Sam dying because I've never seen it as painting all the others as equal to Sam. The way I've always perceived it is that everyone agreed Sam was the one elite hero among them all, and the rest of them were just confindent and competent enough to accompany him. In SS4 is always felt like the rest were trying to measure up to him.

I didn't get that feeling at all in this game. Sam is held up highly in the other games, but I didn't get that sense in 4. He had a good history, but he was still taking orders like everyone else. Especially since he splits up from the others so much, and therefore isn't babysitting them, I definitely got the idea that the others were seen as being just as heroic.

I want to point out, I don't have a problem with the fact that they died, I have a problem with HOW they died. The Italian hero near the start somehow died during a battle that no one else was even scratched in, and it's not clear what he died from. Jones is somehow captured by a khnum off-screen (khnums don't grab at you in-battle, so I don't even know how that happened), and Sam didn't shoot at it until Jones was bitten in half. Kenny is killed after a lengthy monologue by Achriman, during which, again, Sam makes no effort to shoot at him. Mikhail is stabbed during yet another monologue by Brand, during which Sam still make no effort to stop that from happening.

It's not about "why isn't Sam dying" (which isn't adequately explained anyway), it's about "why is ANYONE dying?" All of those deaths were preventable. They didn't die from "the reality of war", they were killed by monsters that Sam was literally staring at for long periods of time while armed to the teeth.

[Antroid]

Yeah lol, can't argue with that point there. I guess I'm glad it didn't really bother me. I think I figured most of the time the situations were adequately enough presented. The Italian guy died just from a stray hit like anyone could've, and most of the rest I think I felt that Sam didn't start blasting because one way or another the characters were captives and he didn't want to hit them, or provoke the monster to immediately attack the character (and I know you can't hurt the NPCs ingame, but hey, surely that's not meant to actually be the reality, lol). Not to bring up DE again, but I remember thinking many times "doomguy, why aren't you blasting this hellpriest with your shotgun and are instead just walking around him", and I didn't think anything like that during SS4's cutscenes...

Regarding whether or not Sam is seen as exceptional, well, sure, he's alwasy taking orders, and always has been, but he also gave orders in this one (like giving the team in Pompeii their targets, I remember some dialogue about Sam giving Kenny/Rodriguez "the easy one"), and I also felt, for example, during the scene where they make up the Pompeii plan, that they sort of turn to him for his confirmation at the end, too. Besides, hey, taking orders from millitary intelligence and cooperating with others who are good enough for the mission doesn't mean he's not considered to be cooler. Heck, in the end Brand singles him out as the one to present to Mental, indicating that he's already very famous. And Akriman keeps talking to him all the time, barely registering the others. So at least the enemy defiitely sees him as a special case, lol.

[Netsa]

I'll give you the "stray hit" thing, though it felt very unnatural, but Sam has access to accurate weapons. The base(d) handgun, the machine gun, the sniper rifle, even the regular shotgun can be used with reasonable accuracy from that distance, so I don't think he would be worried about hitting the captive. The provocation thing seems far-fetched because neither the khnum or Achriman had any chance of putting their captives down. One is a stupid monster, the other one was purposefully malevolent. Even if it wouldn't have worked, they have to show that. If Sam doesn't even try, the whole thing looks stupid.

Brand, meanwhile, holds everyone up with some random soldiers with pistols, then turns into Abomination before their very eyes. I get the feeling they didn't want any violence between humans, but Brand was literally committing treason, then he stabs a priest. No one in the team should have had any reasonable expectation of survival at that point, yet there are no real attempts to resist. If plot armor didn't get in the way, everyone would have died right there. If this was any other game, that scene would have been a firefight. Instead, they get lucky, are "captured", and are somehow able to escape their transports even though none of that makes sense (Sam's escape on the plane was just silly).

Originally posted by Antroid:

the enemy defiitely sees him as a special case, lol.

(clipped only for brevity)
You make a good point in this paragraph. Still, I think the game goes too far out of its way to paint how capable they are. They are shown to be capable of fighting off monsters on their own without Sam's assistance. Jones and Rodriguez joked about the action of their past campaigns. The team is capable of escaping from the harvesters somehow after getting captured by Brand, even though they were separated from Sam at the time. Everyone was working solo on the beacon mission as well (the rest may or may not have taken easier routes, but they were still fighting off monsters with only radio support).

When everyone is essentially Rambo, Sam doesn't stand out quite as much regardless of how rich his history is and how much people respect him. He's basically the same as the Italian hero near the start of the game: revered, but not invincible. For context, note that this part of the discussion was mainly in response to this:

Originally posted by Antroid:

I dont have a problem with everyone but Sam dying because I've never seen it as painting all the others as equal to Sam.

Sam wasn't the only elite hero in this game like most protagonists are in every other game (and every other Serious Sam game). There was even one mentioned on the radio in-game.

Even if they weren't equal to Sam, they were pretty dang close, so anyone getting taken out by random trash stands out as weird.
(Whoops, these posts are getting too long. @_@)

[Antroid]

Originally posted by Netsa:

(Whoops, these posts are getting too long. @_@)

I almost wanted to quote the whole post for sh*ts and giggles but yeah. Also not too on the topic anymore. I don't think I can say anything else besides I kinda-sorta agree with your points but I guess I don't feel too strongly about these issues (or feel like some things could be speculated about/interpreted differently, where the same situation seems reasonable to me and absurd to you), contrary to some other story things that sometimes happen in games (it's not like I just don't care about storylines).

I guess it's obvious that while the same things may bother you and not bother me, it could've been done better so that less people overall would take issue with the story here. Me, I'm happy with the pieces of lore we get, the little inspirational things on the radio, Sam being Sam, and the overall mood of the game (helped a ton by the soundtrack). Not to mention that it's probably the most fun for me to play out of the series so far.

[Netsa]

Originally posted by Antroid:

Not to mention that it's probably the most fun for me to play out of the series so far.

Agreed on most of that except this, so back on topic.

If I could change only one thing in the sequel, I would just request that please, for the love of Mental, make dual-wielding a basic ability. It should never have been on the skill tree at all. SS4 morphs into a much more tedious game if for whatever reason you don't take it. That, and the lack of good boss fights, puts it below 3, SE, and the latter half of 2 for me in terms of fun value.

I liked SS4 as much as the next guy, but they really have to clean it up and do wider play-testing for SS5 when they get around to it. If you don't play SS4 in a really specific way, the game becomes much harder than it should be. Try playing SS4 on Serious without dual-wielding and without side quests. Bonus points if you can do it without secrets or gadgets.

An equivalent challenge in SE and 2 would just be finishing the game without using the Serious Bomb.