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It's BRUTALLY hard though, even for a Infinity Engine veteran, because it's an accurate adaption of the 3.5 Ed system, rather then a very watered down version, like baldur's gate's adaption of 2nd was. If you try to play it like you would BG, you'll die horribly. You have to treat it with the same respect as a PnP game, with a by-the-books DM.
It also enforces your roleplaying around your skills, stats, alignment, and/or class. The NPCs are also more similar to how they would behave in PnP.
On the other hand, it does give you pretty much everything you should have, so even playing a fighter gives you plenty of combat options for things you can pull off.
I'm of the opinion that everyone who plays BG should at least beat it once, just to see what could've been if BG had had a more accurate adaption to it's rule-set.
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When it comes to Elder Scrolls titles, it depends on which ones your talking about. Daggerfall and Morrowind are closer to table-top D&D roleplaying then BG is, in terms of both of the freedom to literally derail the entire plot of the game if that's your choice, with no pesky plot-flags nullifying your choices or instant-death assassins/God-bolts forcing you to restart if you step out of line from the path the devs decided you would follow, while having complete freedom to approach problems from a MASSIVE amount of possible angles depending on what capabilities and knowledge your character has.
I agree about the first part of that. I really enjoy freedom in RPG's. However, I found Elder Scrolls boring after a while because they're pure hack n' slash, no tactics. Morrowind is pretty much spam the attack button unti one of you dies. Oblivion and Skyrim had a bit more depth to combat, but action/exploration games aren't my style. They all have a semi-decent story, sure, but your character doesn't interact in any way with the plot. When you're talking to NPC's, you almost never get a chance to say anything. When you do, it's limited to "ok, give me the quest" or "no, no quest for me."
I think a game isn't an RPG unless it has social elements and morality built into it. For example, in Baldur's Gate you get many dialouge options. You can be the witty sarcastic guy, the goody-two shoes, the psycho, or the guy who, like Sarevok, wants to embrace Bhaal's power. Cross referance that with the way you choose to handle quests and the class you're playing, and you have hundreds of possibilities for unique characters. In hack n slash games like the Elder Scrolls, the only thing we know about our character is that he likes adventuring and killing things.
I also hated the entire skills system of every Elder Scrolls game. RPG's need to have true classes.
I'm also not sure what you mean by being able to approach problems from a massive amount of possible angles. The only option the game ever gave me was combat. There isn't a lot of talking in those games. Enemies just outright charge out you without giving you a chance to parley, and even if they didn't there is no persuade skill. Techinically stealth could be an option, but 99% of the time your goals are combat-oriented.
About Temple of Elemental Evil:
It sounds great! Baldur's Gate was only challenging for me on the harder difficulties, so I don't think I'll have a problem with the difficulty. I've also played D&D since forever, so no complaints for me if it has hardcore PnP rules.
Two questions:
1. I've already read about it, and supposedly it has tons of bugs that make it unplayable. Is this what the fix pack is for?
2. How do I download the fix pack safely? I'm wary of random internet downloads....
Get it from the Circle of 8's official site. They also have a modded campaign for it as well based on another D&D module, once you've completely beaten absolutely everything the original can offer.
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there's a ton of talking in the games, and there is actually a persuade skill (in daggerfall and Morrowind....technically Oblivion had it as well but it's part of poorly designed mini-game, and Skyrim just removed it entirely in favor of a do one quest and they're your love-slave approach), it's in the dialog menu (you can also bribe people to improve disposition). As for hostiles, charm spells could force them to stop attacking since NPCs won't attack someone they have positive disposition with, and becoming hostile (or it just starts hostile) sets it to 0, but a charm spell can push it up back into the positive. This isn't useful against undead or daedra but that's to be expected. You can also use spells to cause enemies to fight amongst themselves. Or burden them so heavily they can't move.
Though most of the charm spells they sell are only useful for very weak enemies, so you'll have to use the spell-making system to create your own. And if it's too powerful for you to cast yourself, you could always try putting it on an item with limited charges and using it from that.
Stealth around, use telekinsis to grab stuff discreetly. Just fly around to avoid enemies. Divination spells that are actually USEFUL!? And of course, the ability to create your own magic items and spells with basically no restrictions (unlike later games in the series that dumbed it down or removed it entirely), even though it's fully legit from a table-top D&D standpoint to do that.
And Elder scrolls does technically have classes as well if you pick a class from the list. At the end of the day, a class is literally nothing more then a collection of skills or proficiencies to make it easier for a new player to just hop into the game or someone who just wants to jump in without putting much thought into their character. The Elder scrolls allows you to play that way if you wish, but also gives you the freedom to expand out into other directions if you changed your mind and wish to try something different. Or you could simply get items that served a similar purpose and stay your chosen focus, though with less control over their effects unless you looked into expanding the abilities yourself.
In that respect it's similar to 3rd Edition's style, since you weren't locked into a single class, and could go in different directions if you so chose (but could also screw yourself if you spread yourself too thin before you had gotten the abilities to compensate for it), where as 2nd was far more limited and while humans had that kind of freedom they had to have exceptionally high stats to take advantage of it.
Even BG could be described as just spamming the attack button till someone dies. One of the more love it/hate it elements of Daggerfall and Morrowind is the fact that they simulate combat just like a DnD system does where your stats/skills make the most difference in how well you can attack/block rather then player skill (to make up for the rather simple animations instead of having a bunch of dramatic-looking dodges and parries), where as Oblivion and Skyrim went full hack'n'slash with no simulation and instead were treated as a pure shooter-ish style.
And as before....you have FULL control over the plot in Daggerfall and Morrowind. It's completely your choice in how you want to approach it or even if you want to do so at all. And unlike later games, it's not being constantly shoved in your face and holding back your ability to do as you wish if you aren't periodically advancing the plot only way they'll let you. You are no pawn to "destiny" and can literally give it the finger if you don't like the way it's trying lead you by the nose.
And to be honest there really isn't a main-plot per say in the Daggerfall and Morrowind. There's a very big and fleshed out side-quest that the game is ostentiably about.......but like everything else in the game, you have the complete freedom to go about it as you wish. Wanna be destinies pawn and follow their plot to letter. You can. Wanna take a third option and fulfill it but in a much different way, you can do that too. Wanna derail it completely just to spite the one who gave you the quest, you can do that too. Wanna change your mind afterward and still take down the big bad but for your own reasons? Sure go for it, though it'll be a bit harder to pull off since they won't just hand you the information anymore since you can no longer leverage the signs of the prophecy to get them to cooperate and you'll have to track it down under your own power.
The point is that I get bored quickly if there isn't some tactical element.
Also, all of those things you named (charm, burden, etc) only work for wizards. Like you say, even using stealth requires wizardry: telekinessis so you can grab objects you need. But even then, as before, 90% of the game is killing certain enemies, so none of those things help with that.
I guess being a warrior was a bad choice for me. I didn't know they were going to give warriors no options other than combat.
I don't remember a persuade skill being in the game. I don't really see how it would be useful, considering that you almost never get a chance to speak. I also don't recall any speech check failures. Unless you mean the persuade thing that is above all the other dialouge options. In that case, 2 things. 1. It only works an non-hostiles and 2. all it does is raise disposition. Is it just for getting better prices or something? There isn't a lot of complexity there. When I think of persuade, I think of something like the way Fallout does it.
I meant to say that there wasn't a lot of talking in Oblivion or Skyrim, not that there wasn't any in Morrowind. I recall there being TONS of NPC dialouge. In fact, I was really impressed by the amount of lore. The main story is really strong and interesting. However all of that it is worth absolutely nothing when I get chance to say something every 1 in 100 dialouges, and even then all I can say is yes or no. A good story in an RPG needs to be interactive, or else it doesn't scratch a role playing itch. If I didn't want to interact with it, I'd go read a book. I'm not making this up, but one time I literally fell asleep reading one NPC or another.
Again, I hear you about it being non linear. You won't hear me disagreeing with you. However, I can't help but feel like none of that matters when the game itself is boring.
Have to say agree with almost all your choices for like / don't like, you have preety good taste / judgement in / of games.
- I really tried to like the Elder Scroll games but... the older ones had 1st person view which I hate and the new ones are too loose in storey, too loose in charactor types etc.
- I really wanted to like Arcanum... I love the premise of high fantasy and steam punk mixed together; and I enjoyed several elements of the game but have never been able to finish it on 7 or 8 tries.
- Witcher series - the fictional world and back story fascinated me but gain the game play just couldn't hold my attention long enough to finish a game after several tries.
- The only game on the like list I had to drop was "Vampires" but I only attempted it way back when it had all those game breaking bugs - maybe one day I will try again as I know it has been patched into a much better product.
There are several good "Infinity" or "DnD" style games coming up that I am excited about, you want to check out: 1. "Pillars of Eternity", 2. Torment: Tides of Numenera, 3. "IWD-EE", 4. Serpent in the Staglands.
I'm mostly excited for Torment: Tides of Numenara. When I played Planescape: Torment for the first time, it made every other game out there look like call of duty. The same guys are doing Numenara, so I think it's safe to assume we could have another gem on our hands.
You should give Vampires another shot. I know it's glitchy but it's worth it. It's a great game with a nuanced story and detailed lore. The concept of it just being a vampire RPG is just so unique and cool.
My favorite aspect though is how there are ALWAYS multiple ways to complete objectives: lie, seduce, intimidate, mind control, stealth, persuation, good-old fashioned violence, etc. You get XP for doing quests, so no matter how you complete them you get the same XP, meaning all character types are equally good. The flexible skill system means a single character can be good at multiple things too...so it becomes difficult to chose sometimes.
A lot of RPG's are too-combat oriented, have balance issues, or have really dumb skill systems. VTMB has none of these problems.
Also, your description of Elder Scrolls is spot on.
High disposition with NPCs was also required for them to be willing to talk about things that were less common knowledge. Either to get hints, or as alternative pathways through quests.
ESPECIALLY in the Great-house questlines where you're having to deal with all their political intrigue. Though there's other options as well. The Thieves guild and Morag Tong made frequent use of Social alternatives to simply steal or breaking and entering.
Much like in actual DnD, a warrior has to rely on his gear to acheive challenges beyond simply smashing something's head in. Seek out items to give you access to certain spells like potions of levitaton or commisioning rings to calm creatures or give you brief spurts of invisibility, weapons that burden or cause fear or soul-trap or you have the alternative to simply gain the skills yourself if you change your mind part-way through and decide you'd rather play a less combat focused character.
And since your ability to level up is directly based on building the skills your class is focused in, you are indeed rewarded for playing your class as intended. Dabbling in other skills can broaden your horizons and allow you to boost your core stats easier, but they don't really account much for your actual growth rate.
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When it comes to actual dialog choices.....nothing really matches Torment, aside from some NWN persistant worlds since you're directly interacting with other people instead of scripted events.
One of the main issues with any roleplaying game is that most people mistakening believe that roleplaying just means gaining levels and lots of combat, which it has nothing to do with they incidental to process (at least as far as Western RPGS are concerned). Unfortunately that means attempts at making genuine RPGs tends to......not attract as much attention as they deserve. Which is why PS:T is more of a cult-classic despite being one of the best roleplaying ANYTHINGs ever made, because it's just not exiciting to the masses.
The early TES games had similar issues. Lots and lots of roleplaying, but because it took a long time to become good at combat, combat was boring.
BG1 also catches a lot of flack over this due to how hard it is to land hits early on and the simple lack of depth the adaption brings. (not that BG2 was any better in that regard).
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As for new games.....I dunno...the EA of Pillars is hard to call because, in order to avoid pre-release spoilers, we're only given a out of context area of the game to play in. And while it seems ok-ish (after some patching), it does seem to lack a sense of depth, though they've said the skill system isn't fully ready yet, so how much of this is due to the early build and how much will be when the game's final build rolls around remains to be seen.
The new Torment sounds nice though, but it's another of those too soon to tell for sure things.
It has tons of content and a very challenging and engaging combat system. There is also plenty of non combat content to offer a change of pace. To me, it's one of the best games since the infinity engine era.
"Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor" (2001) is, IMHO, nowhere near as bad as some people say. It plays very similarly to the Source Engine games, and uses the AD&D 3rd Edition rules. It's probably more combat-oriented than you might like, but it's similar to ToEE and D:OS with its real-time exploration and turn-based combat.
Heh, I've been playing Divinity: Original Sin with my friend actually. We've been trying to finish it because we're persistant bastards, but I don't thnk it's that great at all.
For one, the character writing is awful. I get that its an RPG so people talk differently than they would now, but characters are just so ridiculously verbose that it's annoying to read. On top of this the game just generally has a really silly tone. It's like a 12 year old wrote D&D fanfiction. I'm an adult, so treat me like one.
I also hate how the game is so unclear on what you're supposed to be doing. I appreciate that they tried to make it so you need to actually figure out yourself what you need to do. However, they executed it poorly. It's incredibly easy to do events our of order, which is fine, but then you get punished for this by the game glitching out or being unable to advance. Once, we got stuck for weeks and it turned out that we missed a tiny little book on some stupid shelf way back in the begining of the game. I guess this is one of those games where you have to spend hours mousing over every pixel. The old games like BG and Torment weren't liek this.
The story is just spread out too thinly over a large area. It needs to be "tighter", have a good flow, be more connected, etc. Again, all the old games did this without having to resort to hand holding so I don't see why it's so hard for Larian. And once you figure out what's going on, you realize that it's a really drab story, so there isn't much payoff. Why couldn't Larian create unique and exciting villians like Irenicus or Ravel Puzzlewell?
The combat is pretty unique, but the gimmecks get boring pretty quickly. I chose to play a cleric, a heavy support role. Turns out, there is no support role because pre-buffing is impossible and buffs don't last long enough to be much use. Healing also sucks because it doesn't seem to scale like damage spells. Without effective buffs, fighters like Madora are too weak. The only thing that seems to work is CC. At higher levels, the game is basically "can you charm or CC enemies before they do the same to you?" Or, "Who can stun lock the other the longest?" It feels like a really bland and generic skill system without much room for true roleplaying.
And only 4 companions? Seriously? I have only ever used Madora and Jahan but they're boring and have no personality. Where is a character like Morte, Minsc, or Garrus?
And to put the final nail in the coffin, apparently my buddy and I weren't given some pyramid thing we were supposed to get in the begining. Some people think that this is why Astarte is attacking me in the first garden, thereby preventing me from beating the game.
Many of your criticisms are strengths to other people. Really, it's subjective, but I find D:OS to be good for many of those reasons. To each their own.
The story doesn't get in the way of me writing my own story within it. I like that the storyline is vague and easy to push aside in favor of a change of pace. Much of the strength in the way the storyline is put together is how it allows you to branch off and explore the world without worrying about the linearity of the main goal.
The verbosity is liked by some people because it makes the characters feel more natural. Nobody speaks in an optimum fashion. Everyone rambles about their troubles or goes into detail about their passions so it makes sense. Sure, it takes patience, but I find the writing to be solid in quality as well as quantity. There are some really touching dialogues and laugh out loud stories being told. Such things couldn't be developed so fully in two line responses.
Even though it is light hearted and colorful, the world reminds me a lot of Fable in theme. It's got a sense of European humor to it. Despite this, the game certainly doesn't treat you like you're 12. As you say, some of the riddles and puzzles are downright brutal in what they expect you to discover. You often have to turn every square inch of a level upside down in order to complete some of the side quests. To me, that's awesome.
I will agree that the companions are not nearly as fleshed out as the rest of the game, but considering the budget and time constaints, I can't believe this game even exists in such a polished and massive form.
All combat systems have flaws also. I think it's quite good because combat for me rarely plays out the same way twice in terms of details. It's rare that I can use one strategy or skill rotation alone to get through the game. I've had to backtrack, try new skills and spells, change my rotation and alter my positioning so many times to get ahead. It keeps me quite engaged.
None of my points are meant to attempt to invalidate yours ofcourse. Nothing you say with regard to the game is not factual, but we do seem to judge those facts differently.
In any case, I didn't know you had played it since it wasn't on your list but you apparently have so back on topic, I'd recommend what FAB said. Any spiderweb game is very good with more mature storylines. Don't expect modern day features though. Think of them as a low budget infinity engine type game with solid scrpting and very detailed storylines.
Which ones? All of those are a series with many games. Where should I start, or do you recomend playing them all?
Despite being turn based it manages to have an even worse adaption then BG was of it's rule-set. Though it could be simply due to the 3rd edition ruleset having not been finalized while it was building it's core rule framework (the game would most likely been in late alpha to early beta when 3rd edition was released) (since it plays like it was based on a VERY early draft of 3rd editions rules). But it was definitely not what I would call a good game, at least mechanically.
If you could manage to stomach and slog your way through the actual mechanics it is actually a pretty decent game......it's just one of my pet-peeves about table-top to PC adaptions....if you're going to do it, DO IT RIGHT, and don't half-ass the adaption.
If you want to leave out optional stuff fine, but for the love of god don't mess around with the basic mechanics if they can be properly implemented.