How good are Bards?

[Hamish]

I am playing through the series with a Blade for the first time, and I played this in the 90's. I know I am only playing on Core Rules but one shot killing with no deaths Demogorgon, considering I only killed this guy once before with a Fighter Mage, makes me think Bard are amazing! I got my AC down to -24, stone skin, mirror Immage, and tanked those multi armed things while everyone else killed Demi! I barely took damage (but Jaheira almost died). What's your thoughts on Bards? (my mages also double warden whipped Demorgorgon to make him squishy)

[The Great Cornholio]

Did a plain Bard run through Abazigal.

In BG1 they are decent as the sole mage in the party. You have the light xbow of speed for 3 APR with haste + lightning bolts. Nothing to sneeze at. Plus wands. I think I prefer a bard to any actual mage in BG1 because level 4/5 spell slots are so limited anyway. Gimme that xbow. Throwing daggers with 19str isnt bad either. That STR tome is crucial going into BG2. Never once used the song - complete waste of a character slot.

BG2 - The throwing dagger +2 gives you 3 APR at 19str with haste on, from range. Your damage output is identical to Anomen with a +2 mace - not awful. Your spell slots are very limited. Definite dip in damage output in the first half of SOA. Fighters can way outdamage them, mages can outcast them, fighter/mages do both better. Can tank the sorta tough fights like Tor'Gal effectively.

You can pump up your level a lot by kicking everyone out, stealing all the scrolls in Athkatla and scribing them. You can hit HLA's in Chapter 3 between scribing and Watchers Keep. When you hit HLA's the power curve goes straight up. You get spike traps which is one of the best abilities in the game. Demogorgon, Draconis, instant death. You wear the simulacrum helm and make it sing the improved bard song while you're dual wielding Firetooth/Kundane for 8 APR at fighter THAC with improved haste and Tensers. Or 6 if you're main handing Celestial fury, Foebane, Flail of ages with belm/kundane offhand. Theres the HLA flute ability which gives you 3 casts of delayed blast fireball, remove fear and some shielding spell. Caster level is way ahead of F/M at this point.

Definitely not weak. Bard HLA's are fantastic and close the gap with fighter/mage somewhat. FM way better before that.

[Millstone85]

The Great Cornholio lähetti viestin:

Plus wands. I think I prefer a bard to any actual mage in BG1 because level 4/5 spell slots are so limited anyway.

Oh yeah, arcane casters in BG1 are mostly there to use wands and identify items. A bard does the former just as well as any mage, and the latter much much better.

Never once used the song - complete waste of a character slot.

I think the skald's song is worth it through BG1 and much of BG2, to the point where I don't care if EBS eventually makes the whole kit obsolete.

[The Great Cornholio]

I think the skald's song is worth it through BG1 and much of BG2, to the point where I don't care if EBS eventually makes the whole kit obsolete.

I like the Skald song and I would have used the kit but the range is so short. Anyone more than a few feet away loses the song buff so you have to micromanage the position of the bard and then it takes a few seconds to get the buff back. Ruined the class for me.

[sick duck]

I feel like the range was a lot greater in the non-enhanced BG2. I don't remember getting frustrated about it at any rate.

[Hamish]

I used Bard Song in BG1 quite alot, that +1 luck and immunity to fear is pretty sweet in many of situations as just about every mage in the game starts off with fear. The fact Blade bard song doesn't improve with level does not apply to BG1 as you can't reach level 15 anyway when it starts to improve. Enhance Bard Song is very nice if you want to be a tank getting -10AC among other things on yourself and giving everyone else a nice boost too.

[Kamuizin]

If Bard song was like a temporary buff with uses per day like 3Ed and progression based on level, bards would feel better to play. AD&D you need to make the character do nothing and it's like have a fixed pole as a party member.

Bard's Hat from Sod make things a bit less boring, still not the best outcome for me, too much micromanagement.

The songs are awesome and if you must play one, go for Haer'Dalis in BG2, he at least get 2 pips in long and short swords, while that's not extra APR on bards, it's still bonus to Thac0 and damage.

[Soft Lockpick]

They fill the role they are meant to. Not the best at anything, but able to do a bit of everything all in one class. It's a tiny bit redundant with F/M/T multiclasses also existing, one of those really should go I think.

But I don't think it's the favorite class of many. Blades get some love from players mostly.

Though Jester is a really funny way to play through BG1. Loses value after.

I'd say it's a good first character. You can decide what you like being good at while trying it all. Same with F/M/T.

[kaiyl_kariashi]

Kamuizin lähetti viestin:

If Bard song was like a temporary buff with uses per day like 3Ed and progression based on level, bards would feel better to play. AD&D you need to make the character do nothing and it's like have a fixed pole as a party member.

Bard's Hat from Sod make things a bit less boring, still not the best outcome for me, too much micromanagement.

The songs are awesome and if you must play one, go for Haer'Dalis in BG2, he at least get 2 pips in long and short swords, while that's not extra APR on bards, it's still bonus to Thac0 and damage.

Actually bards work EXACTLY like that in 2nd edition too.

BG completely ♥♥♥♥♥♥ THEM UP.

As in there's hardly anything actually correct with bards, period, in BG. Pretty much the only stuff that's accurate is what is from the Rogue Level table appendicies. I.e. their thac0 progression, HD, xp to level, saves, 1-20 spell progression (but NOT their 21-30 spell progression (only IWD has done that correctly but still messed up on the songs)), and thief skills (that are implemented).

Bard Song takes 3 rounds to cast but lasts 1 round per level, and you get to choose what bonus it gives (the current Bard Song just gives all of them + fear immunity but requires you do nothing but sing). And affects all allies within 10ft per level.

Skald's Battle Song works similarly except that they have a lot more choices in effects, they gain additional effect slots as they level, and the song lasts for as long as they are attacking enemies with melee combat. It stops refreshing if they take damage, stop fighting for too long or attack with ranged weapons, after which it persists for 1 round per level. (they can also use any equipment a fighter can excluding Full Plate, but their spell progression is 1 level behind other bards, and their Lore ability only works on weapons/armor/battle potions/and knowledge about famous battles or other strategic stuff related to warfare, but is twice as effective as a True Bard's on those things)

The Blade's Weapon Display dance, which replaces bard song, works similarly to normal bard song except it buffs allies and debuffs enemies. Otherwise it works the same. 3 round dance, than 1 round/level of duration, affects all enemies/allies within LOS out to 10ft per level.

the ONLY bard abilities that require full concentration while in use are Counter-Song (which isn't even in game (it basically gives the Bard the ability to make a save to negate the effects of verbal attacks on all his allies, which stops stuff like Charm, Command, Words of Power, or anything else the target needs to hear to be affected by it), The jester's Jest ability (which taunts 1 enemy over and over to force them to attack the Jester every round they fail the save), and the Blade's Defensive Spin (which ends immediately if he takes damage or takes any other action beyond maintaining the spin).

[omegazeda]

Try this mod if you think its too easy: https://www.gibberlings3.net/mods/quests/ascension

[Kawaii Five-0]

Blades are a better FMT for 90% of the series. They use the Thief XP table which causes them to level up blisteringly fast. Funnily, because they just use Mage spells, but have a max Spellbook progression of 6, they're better, significantly faster at any spell of 6 or lower that scales with the caster's level.

[HsenPar]

Bards make the best buff/debuff oriented spell-casters.

Such spells tend to last considerably longer due to a higher caster level. Mages progress slower and they have a lower level cap. Bard's Dispel Magic spell is also more potent for the same reason.

[Hamish]

omegazeda lähetti viestin:

Try this mod if you think its too easy: https://www.gibberlings3.net/mods/quests/ascension

I have in the past, not bothering about mods in EE, can't be bothered. Also I only did it on Core Rules, like I said, so if I want it harder just need to turn up the difficulty. This is a post about Bards being better than people generally think, including me.

[Gustuv Wynd]

Hamish lähetti viestin:

Gustuv Wynd lähetti viestin:

They are decidedly weaker than a fair amount of other classes, but not all. Once you get HLAs it opens some more options, but just slapping an item on them they normally can't use isn't going to make up for the gap. Still fun to play though...should have been able to use bard song while attacking. With that you'd pretty much always want to have one in the party.

I have to agree, they are not the strongest by a long shot, but way better than I thought! through bg1 that bard song sure was useful, that +1 luck is powerful in that game. and now he is a buffing super tank! I can also get his Attack per round up to 6 with that scarlet ninja to, crom fayer and improved haste which compensates for some of the shortcomings in melee.

The only issue is that the range of the bard song is 30 feet. If you can keep your party under the effects it is pretty cool though. Especially a skald. That +2 to hit and damage might not sound like much, but if you get a party of 6 with a couple hasted dual wielders and some darts flying and such...the 5 other characters easily can get over 12 attacks per round. Lets say they manage to land 8 attacks total in part thanks to the to hit bonus...that is a flat 16 damage. Not a die roll, but 16 damage while not being on the front lines. That is respectable damage per round from most any class. Not incredible, but by BG1 standards pretty decent.

Later on a bard will do OK just because they get spell protections. Any other abilities are just gravy.

[sick duck]

I never find time for bard song. Too many other things to do that are more important, and I think the v l blade can do more damage in melee

[Gustuv Wynd]

sick duck lähetti viestin:

I never find time for bard song. Too many other things to do that are more important, and I think the v l blade can do more damage in melee

Well, the blade doesn't boost damage by singing until they can get enhanced bard song any way. And just because they can do more damage doesn't mean they will. They could roll poorly. Plus the skald can do this by doing nothing...no once a day abilities...no buffs...no going into melee range...they literally just stand there. it is really the main reason I don't like skalds...they are boring. Well...that and keeping all your character 30 feet apart or closer is easier said than done.