Is it worth having a Bard in your party?

[The Hermit]

I've never, ever kept one in my party for more than a few in-game days until I found another warrior/cleric/whatever to take their place. However, to my understanding, Bards can cast spells like a mage, and act like a thief at times as well.

Of course this jack-of-all-trades aspect has it's downsides, however, what about their special song they perform? is it worth it? If not, would obtaining all of the harps for him (or her) to use help make him worth it? I've seen quite a bit of those Harps in stores and whatnot, but since I never had a bard I never used them.

[Jargas]

Wondered how good bards are my self. The Jester kit song sounds pretty good

[kaiyl_kariashi]

Not as good as they should be.

Their song is poorly implemented, their spell progression at 20+ is wrong (it was accurately represented in IWD1), and none of the proper strengths and penalties are applied are applied to the kits.


Without the NCP system saying a bard can act as a thief is a BIG stretch. All they can do is pick pockets, and while their innate lore would be useful, BG made identifying items such a joke compared to actual 2nd edition it's not needed.


The Rogue Rebalancing mod addresses some of it, but doesn't go far enough IMO, though it's still a good option if you find the bards lacking. It does corrects some of the gross injustices done to the bard class/kits by bioware, but not all of them.

[Soft Lockpick]

No. F/M/T and Bard are basically the same class. F/M/T does it better.

[Kyoko]

Jesters are seriously underrated.

[Soft Lockpick]

"Jester:
Advantages: Bard Song does not help allies. Instead, enemies must routinely save vs spell with a +4 bonus on the throw or become confused.
Disadvantages: None."

Based on that I'd assume Jesters with invisibility are pretty awesome in BG1, and are basically weaker than base bards in BG2 endgame/ToB because their primary class feature doesn't work anymore.

[Dr.Killenstein]

There was an old method of soloing both games called "Bards with Wands". The bardsong is kinda crap because of its inconvenience, but the versatility of the Bard lets you cheese the games to an incredible degree. If you are willing to go that route. Otherwise, Blades aren't too bad, what I would do in your position is get Haer'Dalis in your group and play around with him, see if you like it. Never felt the urge to make my main character a Bard myself.

[DnD Detective]

Oprindeligt skrevet af DeathByFacepalm:

"Jester:
Advantages: Bard Song does not help allies. Instead, enemies must routinely save vs spell with a +4 bonus on the throw or become confused.
Disadvantages: None."

Based on that I'd assume Jesters with invisibility are pretty awesome in BG1, and are basically weaker than base bards in BG2 endgame/ToB because their primary class feature doesn't work anymore.

It is treated differently in BG2. They are better than base bards because all the base bard song does is give you protection from panic/remove panic. In bg2 they get

o 1st level: Enemies must save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus or be confused.
o 15th level: Enemies must save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus or be confused, and must
save vs. Spell or be slowed.
o 20th level: Enemies must save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus or be confused, must save
vs. Spell at +2 or be knocked unconscious, and must save vs. Spell or be slowed.

Its sounds better than it actually is in my opinion but it is nice in that it bypasses magic resistance and can be used while invisible.

Bards are really best though for their ability to use wands along with their access to higher level abilities. Spike Trap and Epic Bard Song being particularly great for them.

[danconnors]

I've tried playing as a bard a few times, but the resultant character was so underpowered I gave up on them pretty quickly. A bard is NOT a thief. He can't disarm traps, open locks or do anything really useful that a thief does. Picking pockets is a completely wasted talent. A bard is NOT a fighter. He can't even get two slots in any weapon skill. He can't carry a shield. Basically he can't cut his way out of a wet paper bag. A bard is NOT a mage. He can't have a familiar. He can't learn spells past level 6, and he gets a very low number of spells in those levels he can learn.

Basically a bard is someone who can play music. Nice to have, but basically useless.

[Soft Lockpick]

Oprindeligt skrevet af kamster99:

Oprindeligt skrevet af DeathByFacepalm:

"Jester:
Advantages: Bard Song does not help allies. Instead, enemies must routinely save vs spell with a +4 bonus on the throw or become confused.
Disadvantages: None."

Based on that I'd assume Jesters with invisibility are pretty awesome in BG1, and are basically weaker than base bards in BG2 endgame/ToB because their primary class feature doesn't work anymore.

It is treated differently in BG2. They are better than base bards because all the base bard song does is give you protection from panic/remove panic. In bg2 they get

o 1st level: Enemies must save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus or be confused.
o 15th level: Enemies must save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus or be confused, and must
save vs. Spell or be slowed.
o 20th level: Enemies must save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus or be confused, must save
vs. Spell at +2 or be knocked unconscious, and must save vs. Spell or be slowed.

Its sounds better than it actually is in my opinion but it is nice in that it bypasses magic resistance and can be used while invisible.

Bards are really best though for their ability to use wands along with their access to higher level abilities. Spike Trap and Epic Bard Song being particularly great for them.

That ability is still pretty much garbage. All saves are at base level or +2 even at 20th level. Meaning they'll never work on anything you want them to. In BG1 that'd be a good invisibility cheese tactic for the whole game probably. But once you hit the later points of SoA and go into ToB you're just a weaker bard. The buff would at least always work.

[DnD Detective]

Its still better than the base bard song (most enemy saves aren't so good in SoA that enemies will always save against all three of the effects) and it can be pretty fun to watch enemies make some saves and not others. Also works a lot better once you have Greater Malison and Mislead (and therefore have 2 characters using it). Skald's is still quite a bit better than both of them though.

[Soft Lockpick]

In ToB it'll be basically useless. No enemy it affects will be a threat to you. And if you're in a spot to greater malison something you could just cast a save or die spell at it after and be done with it. Just because a spell CAN still work when supported by malison shots doesnt mean it's worth it.

I'd totally Jester through BG1 as it's probably hilarious... it's just that by the last expansion it seems like you could've picked most anything else and have a stronger character because your primary class feature is almost totally disabled.

[ÄmJii]

With right setup Haer'Dalis kicks some major butt, while tanking enemies with PfMW & Stoneskins & Mirror Images and AC -30. Not enough? How about adding Globe of Minor Invulnerability + Skull Trap on-self spam on top of that? Or Mislead + melee cheesing?

Pair him with Imoen and you'll have all thieving needs covered on top of having two proficient spell casters (Haer'Dalis can still toss Lower Resistance & Breach & Pierce Magic... not to mention Imp. Haste + Tenser's Transformation).
Keep in mind he levels up much faster than F/T/M -> his Caster Level is much higher than pure Mages.

Still not convinced? Have some Spike Traps & other yummy Thief HLAs.



Still, Bards are tad underwhelming (so are pure Clerics, but I digress) in D&D 2nd Edition. Both classes gained a huge boost in 3rd Edition, imho Bards are much better in IWD II and Neverwinter Nights I & II.

[kaiyl_kariashi]

Well yeah.....they actually had most of their abilities and they at least kind of worked properly in NWN/IWD2.

BG bards don't.

Fixing their song would go a long way towards helping make the bard more useful.

But one of the biggest changes they could make would be implementing the Non-combat proficiency system (this would be a pretty decent improvement to all classes, but especially the bard who can purchase ranks from anything but the priest pool for normal cost).

There are several NCP already being used in-game, but they're applied as class/kit abilties instead of purchased abilties with NCP points like they're supposed to be.

And clerics are currently getting screwed due to reversibile spells not being implemented, which hurts their versatility A LOT.

(Reversible spells are similar to spontainous casting from 3rd, except instead of converting another spell into damage or healing depending on whether you use positive or negative energy, most divine spells simply have a beneficial or harmful effect that is chosen at the time of casting, allowing you to just load up on helpful spells and use them against enemies if their beneficial qualities aren't needed or an emergency comes up and you need the extra umph to get through the encounter).

[Kyoko]

Throne of Bhaal is a very small part of the game and therefore meaningless. Jester works just fine through most of BG2. I wouldn't pick it for my main but it works as a great support character. In case some people don't know, you can begin your game in multiplayer mode and create more than one character even when playing by yourself.

[DnD Detective]

Oprindeligt skrevet af DeathByFacepalm:

In ToB it'll be basically useless. No enemy it affects will be a threat to you. And if you're in a spot to greater malison something you could just cast a save or die spell at it after and be done with it. Just because a spell CAN still work when supported by malison shots doesnt mean it's worth it.

I'd totally Jester through BG1 as it's probably hilarious... it's just that by the last expansion it seems like you could've picked most anything else and have a stronger character because your primary class feature is almost totally disabled.

Yep it would be very ineffective in ToB. Thankfully though Enhanced Bard Song replaces it and it will stack with itself. If you get it and Use Any Item (along with using Vhailor's Helm and casting Mislead) you can be giving all your party members -12 AC, -12 Thac0, +12 damage, immunity to fear, stun, and confusion; +15% Magic Resistance, and immunity to normal weapons. Best part is that you don't need to have your party members anywhere near the person singing to benefit from it. So you can leave them to sing well out of harms way.