Negative Saves

[Centurion]

So, a thought hit me the other day. My current PC has a save versus spells of -2(-6), and similar saves to other things. Does this equal "virtual immunity to spells?" Now, I know that saves to things like AOE spells only means half-damage, and some spells have negative modifiers. But I was thinking about my tactics: Since BG1 I have a tactic of web+entangle+tank gets free action (item, spell, potion), so the tank can get free attacks on enemies who have to face two saves every round. (Works great against everyone not magic immune.) But then I thought: If my saving throw is that low to my own spells, do I need to even bother with free action anymore?

I know even when THACO goes below zero you can still have a critical miss. But can you have a critical fail on saving throws? Or, once you reach a saving throw of 1 (or less against spells with save penalties), are saves automatic? Really, how many enemies cast Malison and such? And against your own spells (web, cloud kill, stinking cloud, etc.) aren't you effectively immune at some point?

[philos3]

Good question. I use the web-entangle strategy a lot myself. Instead of a tank I perforate the enemy with a hail of arrows, bolts and bullet. Ammo is cheap, why get close. : )
The answer is mostly yes, but a couple of caveats. Like THAC0, a natural 1 on the die roll is always a failure. Saves are never automatic (unless you drink the potion of Magic Shielding that grants it). There are some situations as you mention, where you could still fail a save vs spell even with a negative saving throw number. One example is Chaos (and enemy mages love to throw it), it has a -4 to your save. So you could fail on a 1,or 2. Still low odds but you see what I mean. I would calculate that once you hit -3 or lower you will only fail on a "1".

EDIT: I can't add, a saving throw of -2 will always save "unless" you throw a "1" on your die roll.

Yes, Greater Malison will drop your save by another 4. But, I can't recall any enemies that use it off the top of my head either, however I would bet the SCS mod has mages use it.

[6h0$t942]

Wait you mean the fifth level cleric spell can be something other than chaotic commands?

[philos3]

Originally posted by 6h0$t942:

Wait you mean the fifth level cleric spell can be something other than chaotic commands?

Getting your character (or NPCs) to where their saving throws are in the negatives usually happens after reaching levels in the "teens" and takes a lot of magic items.

There are so many items that help against mind altering spells I rarely use Chaotic commands myself. You can get Lilacor (+3 two handed sword with mind protection) very early and there are IIRC 3 helms of protection from charm. More than enough to keep the vampires and mages at bay. Those enemies typically target the closest party member, ie, the fighters and clerics.

But that said, I still take Chaotic Commands when facing with Illithids and such. I suspect their Psionic Blast has some severe penalties to saving throws, not to mention it is an AOE effect, because they seem to always stun at least a couple of my party if I don't.

[Zotliatlicor]

Originally posted by 6h0$t942:

Wait you mean the fifth level cleric spell can be something other than chaotic commands?

Chaotic Commands i only use in a select few situations, most of the time it is a wasted spell slot to have it memorized. I play mostly on LOB, sometimes on Insane, and Greater Command is the lvl 5 spell of my choice. It is far far more important to get control of the battle as fast as possible, and Greater Commands works on most enemies.

I couple this with Mages Greater Malison and Emotion Hopelessnes, and Hold spells (Hold Monster works on close to anything after debuffing).

Even the lvl 1 Command is a valid spell for all of SOA, if it hits the next spell will likely auto hit the target.

[6h0$t942]

i actually ignored saving throws for.....95% of my many hours playing the game. i worked under the assumption that it was immunity or nothing. Hence my fondness for chaotic commands.
Considering the potion of invulnerability gives a +5 and 2/3 of my current characters have high pickpocket though...maybe try branching out.

Which is kinda funny because in BG2 saving throws might actually help, whereas in the pathfinder games its "So...you need to roll a 28 to avoid it."

"...ok...well....I have a...+4....and my spell gives me a....+2..."

"well, Fk you 10 rounds of stun."

"ok..."

[philos3]

Originally posted by 6h0$t942:

Considering the potion of invulnerability gives a +5 and 2/3 of my current characters have high pickpocket though...maybe try branching out.

Which is kinda funny because in BG2 saving throws might actually help, whereas in the pathfinder games its "So...you need to roll a 28 to avoid it."
"...ok...well....I have a...+4....and my spell gives me a....+2..."

The potion of invulnerability is great, you might also consider the potion of magic shielding. With it, you automatically make all saves. It doesn't stop spells with no save but still pretty nice. There are not a lot of them but it is handy to have some for tough fight.

Yeah, I fully understand the Pathfinder logic. Saves and AC get so inflated and spiral to ridiculous levels in it (which we can thank 3.5 for).

[Zotliatlicor]

Hehe, remember a deep gnome character in IWD 2 (ver. 3.5 ruleset) with a possible AC of 72 (the base starts at 10). Plain crazy but fun in its own way.

In BG 2 i am fan of immunities too, and strive to have my frontliners 'immune' to the effectgs that ruin fights. So basically i get Chaotic Commands from abilities and or items.

When i really need it, like in Illithids fights, i make sure to memorize enough for all in need.

[ÄmJii]

Originally posted by philos3:

The answer is mostly yes, but a couple of caveats. Like THAC0, a natural 1 on the die roll is always a failure. Saves are never automatic (unless you drink the potion of Magic Shielding that grants it).

Not exactly true, BG (original and EE) never implemented critical failure on saving throws. Natural 1 rule applies to tabletop, but BioWare decided not to implement it. See here for more details:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/71755/saving-throws-question-critical-fail-success

So yes, a character who has negative saves & Cloak of Reflection is practically immune to spellcasters, barring Imprisonment and such rare exceptions. Realistically, either Korgan, Mazzy or Fighter/Cleric dwarf MC gets their unbuffed Saves that low.
Do note that some creature abilities (ie. Alu-Fiends & Succubus in Watcher's Keep) have ridiculously high save penalty (around -8 or -10), which can still overcome your absurdly good saves.

OP: You can even throw Stinking Cloud on top of Web, that way you're adding a Save vs Death to the mix. For some reason, enemy mages have bloated Save vs Spell, but their Save vs Death is far more manageable.
You can also try Animate Dead + Stinking Cloud (+ Cloudkill if you have it) to imitate your current tactic, skeletons are naturally immune to poison effects.

[Zotliatlicor]

A roll of 1 is a "Critical Miss" in combat no matter what your Thaco is, so this was at the minimum implemented in the Thac0 system. But interesting article on the Saves function.

[Centurion]

Originally posted by ÄmJii:

OP: You can even throw Stinking Cloud on top of Web, that way you're adding a Save vs Death to the mix. For some reason, enemy mages have bloated Save vs Spell, but their Save vs Death is far more manageable.
You can also try Animate Dead + Stinking Cloud (+ Cloudkill if you have it) to imitate your current tactic, skeletons are naturally immune to poison effects.

Actually, my MC is a Cavalier, so cloud immunity comes naturally. Once I got Cloud Kill (SoD), that became the standard tactic. Spider's Bane+web+entangle+cloud kill. It's absolutely devastating. In this game I have put the Periapt on a second fighter for more fun in the clouds.

It is good to know about those exceptions. Of course that is not a hard buff either. Simulacrum+Protection from Magic Scroll! Spell casters become targets!

[6h0$t942]

Originally posted by Centurion:

It is good to know about those exceptions. Of course that is not a hard buff either. Simulacrum+Protection from Magic Scroll! Spell casters become targets!

Assassin/fighter with time stop and simalacrum and tensers transformation is fun.