Slings - The Ultimate Missile Weapon?

[Godsarm]

Starting in BG I, I have everyone take Sling as a proficiency and a specialization if allowed. Advantages: Strength Bonus on Damage and Shield Bonus to AC when in use. Even Imoen and Nalia can use Bucklers to lower their AC this way. There is precisely one +1 Buckler in the game, except if you do Neera's quest, go buy two +3 Bucklers from the Armor vendor at the arena. Early in the game +1 Slings are cheap and over time you can acquire a couple of +5's. With the Sling of Everard the enhancement bonus for the sling and ammo stack!

Later in the game I have Nalia switch to the Firetooth Crossbow and Imoen to the Gesen Bow (due to their natural enhancement bonus for what they can hit) but I keep the sling/buckler combination in their inventory for tight quarters fights.

[ÄmJii]

Shield AC bonus doesn't matter at all, trust me.
STR bonus does apply to slings and all throwing weapons (there used to be bug which prevented throwing axes/hammers getting STR bonus), throwing weapons have the advantage of having higher enchantments sooner available.
Some folks have done calculations pointing out that out of all ranged characters, high STR Kensai with Throwing Axes yields most damage per round.

Sling's own enchantment affects THACO and damage, but not the "what can it hurt" aspect: Therefore even Sling of Everard doesn't put a dent on Elementals or Vampires if you're loaded with regular or +1 ammo.
Boomerang dagger +2 & Firetooth dagger +3 (yes, it shares the same name as that crossbow you mentioned) are kinda like T. Axe and Sling mixed together: It can be used by Mages with Bucklers and it gains STR boost. Plus, they're both available much sooner than +3 Arrows/Bolts/Bullets become available.

[Godsarm]

Originally posted by ÄmJii:

Shield AC bonus doesn't matter at all, trust me.
STR bonus does apply to slings and all throwing weapons (there used to be bug which prevented throwing axes/hammers getting STR bonus), throwing weapons have the advantage of having higher enchantments sooner available.
Some folks have done calculations pointing out that out of all ranged characters, high STR Kensai with Throwing Axes yields most damage per round.

Sling's own enchantment affects THACO and damage, but not the "what can it hurt" aspect: Therefore even Sling of Everard doesn't put a dent on Elementals or Vampires if you're loaded with regular or +1 ammo.
Boomerang dagger +2 & Firetooth dagger +3 (yes, it shares the same name as that crossbow you mentioned) are kinda like T. Axe and Sling mixed together: It can be used by Mages with Bucklers and it gains STR boost. Plus, they're both available much sooner than +3 Arrows/Bolts/Bullets become available.

I'm sorry, but since when does a shield bonus to AC not matter? All AC bonuses matter and I'd rather have the AC bonus and the STR damage bonus from a sling than use a bow or crossbow unless I'm firing specialty ammuntion like arrows/bolts of biting.

Since I steal all of the +2 sling bullets that I can get my hands on, ammo is free so you really only need to worry about those that can only be hit by +3 or greater weapons. Once you get to ToB you get +4 bullets (but no +4 arrows or bolts) and since you have more money than you know what to do with, why not stack both? Like I said, I play for ToB. Some tradeoffs get made at the middle levels to achieve that.

[ZirzoR]

Originally posted by Godsarm:

Originally posted by ÄmJii:

Shield AC bonus doesn't matter at all, trust me.
STR bonus does apply to slings and all throwing weapons (there used to be bug which prevented throwing axes/hammers getting STR bonus), throwing weapons have the advantage of having higher enchantments sooner available.
Some folks have done calculations pointing out that out of all ranged characters, high STR Kensai with Throwing Axes yields most damage per round.

Sling's own enchantment affects THACO and damage, but not the "what can it hurt" aspect: Therefore even Sling of Everard doesn't put a dent on Elementals or Vampires if you're loaded with regular or +1 ammo.
Boomerang dagger +2 & Firetooth dagger +3 (yes, it shares the same name as that crossbow you mentioned) are kinda like T. Axe and Sling mixed together: It can be used by Mages with Bucklers and it gains STR boost. Plus, they're both available much sooner than +3 Arrows/Bolts/Bullets become available.

I'm sorry, but since when does a shield bonus to AC not matter? All AC bonuses matter and I'd rather have the AC bonus and the STR damage bonus from a sling than use a bow or crossbow unless I'm firing specialty ammuntion like arrows/bolts of biting.

Since I steal all of the +2 sling bullets that I can get my hands on, ammo is free so you really only need to worry about those that can only be hit by +3 or greater weapons. Once you get to ToB you get +4 bullets (but no +4 arrows or bolts) and since you have more money than you know what to do with, why not stack both? Like I said, I play for ToB. Some tradeoffs get made at the middle levels to achieve that.

What he is trying to tell you is that AC doesnt mean crap later on when everyone has so low THAC0 that they will most likely always hit you and its null&void to try and dodge anything, late game is all about ironskin/stoneskin/Mirror Image/Blur and soaking damage instead of trying to dodge it.

And also, Dont be a filthy pickpocket!

[anferFFmax]

Originally posted by Godsarm:

Originally posted by ÄmJii:

Shield AC bonus doesn't matter at all, trust me.
STR bonus does apply to slings and all throwing weapons (there used to be bug which prevented throwing axes/hammers getting STR bonus), throwing weapons have the advantage of having higher enchantments sooner available.
Some folks have done calculations pointing out that out of all ranged characters, high STR Kensai with Throwing Axes yields most damage per round.

Sling's own enchantment affects THACO and damage, but not the "what can it hurt" aspect: Therefore even Sling of Everard doesn't put a dent on Elementals or Vampires if you're loaded with regular or +1 ammo.
Boomerang dagger +2 & Firetooth dagger +3 (yes, it shares the same name as that crossbow you mentioned) are kinda like T. Axe and Sling mixed together: It can be used by Mages with Bucklers and it gains STR boost. Plus, they're both available much sooner than +3 Arrows/Bolts/Bullets become available.

I'm sorry, but since when does a shield bonus to AC not matter? All AC bonuses matter and I'd rather have the AC bonus and the STR damage bonus from a sling than use a bow or crossbow unless I'm firing specialty ammuntion like arrows/bolts of biting.

Since I steal all of the +2 sling bullets that I can get my hands on, ammo is free so you really only need to worry about those that can only be hit by +3 or greater weapons. Once you get to ToB you get +4 bullets (but no +4 arrows or bolts) and since you have more money than you know what to do with, why not stack both? Like I said, I play for ToB. Some tradeoffs get made at the middle levels to achieve that.

The thing is that you are neither right, nor wrong. The reason is because from some angles you point stands, but from some others it doesn't. Your fundamental point of slings being better than other missile weapons is flawed at best. Slings can't be had with more than 2 prof slots by the game's most devastating archer class, the aptly named "Archer," which can have up to 5 slots into any bows or crossbows, but only two in slings.

Further more, if slings get a STR bonus, bows get a dexterity bonus, so how is one bonus better than the other? Clearly, to who this bonuses would benefit depends on the stats chosen by the player when he/she rolled the toon. And also the profession chosen. A mage is likely to have a higher DEX than STR, Nalia certainly has more DEX than STR, so does Imoen. So for those two a bow is clearly a better choice.

Also The Tansheron's and the Gensen short bows can fire +3 and +4 arrows respectively on their own, which means at least in SoA, they would be capable to hit just about anything other than foes that are immune to piercing damage, namely Golems. Also the DemiLeech needs to be hit with a +4 weapon which would rule out the Tasheron's bow, but can still be hit with the Gensen. Now picture what an elven archer with 5 slots into shortbows and 19 DEX would be capable of doing with said weapon. Now build any alternative with slings and I assure you that you won't be able to dish out as much damage. Also the speed of the attacks won't be the same. Shortbows are really the closest to a machine gun a BG2 weapon can get, one of my favorite ones comes with a bonus of just +1 (Tuigan bow +1), but it's so bloody fast that it would devastate most foes, especially casters. Give such weapon to a Wizard Slayer with 5 slots into shortbows, and you'll never have to worry about a wizard again.

Also what he said about AC is no wrong at all, and I can tell you that I no longer care much about AC either. I'm playing LoB difficulty and I see goblins hitting my -12 AC tanks with every hit as if they were naked. It seems, that when the game's difficulty is raised to its limits, the MASSIVE thaco foes get tends to render optainable AC useless. That's what I'm guessing he was trying to explain to you.

Like I said in the beginning you are neither wrong nor right, but always try to consider the angles the people you are debating are coming from, that way you'll get a better understanding of the issues being discussed.

[Gustuv Wynd]

My main trouble with slings is that they are best used on high strength characters. I have to ask myself why I would have the high strength character throwing rocks in stead of up front swinging a melee weapon that will be doing more damage.


Heh, yeah the AC bit will come as a shocker. For all of BG1, and maybe the first 1/3 of BG2, AC is very important. Then rather abruptly it all is about hit points, negating damage, and the amount of damage you can do. Even on the Core Rules difficulty.

[anferFFmax]

Originally posted by vagrantstorm:

. I have to ask myself why I would have the high strength character throwing rocks in stead of up front swinging a melee weapon that will be doing more damage.

The answer to that is LoB difficulty where even the goblins in Irenicus dungeon can tank your melee classes. It's amazing really how they rendered melee useless. I built a whole series of different melee guys and threw them into them to see how long they lasted, the only thing that could do it was a fighter-mage, because of its cheezy mage prots, but everybody else died like a bunch of pansies, I even made several versions of a Zerker with 19str and con, 18 dex, and 5 slots into every weps available theough the different versions, they still killed him every time! Melee is actually a big no no for the most part of the game during LoB difficulty, so range combat is kind of like a must. You would use summons to get agro, then move in your party to spray the foes with missiles. Occasionally, you would have your tanks going melee on stragglers, and I find two handed weps to be especially useful in LoB, because they allow your melee guys to stand behind your summons to pound the enemy without getting hit themselves.

[Gustuv Wynd]

Originally posted by anfermin:

Originally posted by vagrantstorm:

. I have to ask myself why I would have the high strength character throwing rocks in stead of up front swinging a melee weapon that will be doing more damage.

The answer to that is LoB difficulty where even the goblins in Irenicus dungeon can tank your melee classes. It's amazing really how they rendered melee useless. I built a whole series of different melee guys and threw them into them to see how long they lasted, the only thing that could do it was a fighter-mage, because of its cheezy mage prots, but everybody else died like a bunch of pansies, I even made several versions of a Zerker with 19str and con, 18 dex, and 5 slots into every weps available theough the different versions, they still killed him every time! Melee is actually a big no no for the most part of the game during LoB difficulty, so range combat is kind of like a must. You would use summons to get agro, then move in your party to spray the foes with missiles. Occasionally, you would have your tanks going melee on stragglers, and I find two handed weps to be especially useful in LoB, because they allow your melee guys to stand behind your summons to pound the enemy without getting hit themselves.

Ahh well, that's a different story. A long while ago I did make a half orc pure fighter with mastery in slings to play the insane difficulty with. Though I never finished that game as it got kind of boring.

[anferFFmax]

Originally posted by vagrantstorm:

Ahh well, that's a different story. A long while ago I did make a half orc pure fighter with mastery in slings to play the insane difficulty with. Though I never finished that game as it got kind of boring.

Yeah they are not the greatest thing to look at, I blame the old animations, and the fact that we certainly aren't psychologically prime to perceave a big guy wearing full armor using/wearing such fruity weapon. It' like Golliath took David's weapon, while in practice it may have worked, is just so fruity is not even funny.

[Godsarm]

The thing I like about slings is that you get DEX bonus to hit, STR bonus to damage and can use a shield to improve AC. I'd agree that on the high difficulty settings that AC doesn't do much for you but I usually play on Core Rules because, well that's AD&D that I grew up on. If you think of BG 1, you will be using missiles a lot and even the first have of BG2 to at least thin the herd or take out the spell casters fast before the melee guys close. There are situations in BP2 that I stay in missile mode (truth be told I usually have an Archer with GM in Bow and a Fighter/Thief with specialization in Crossbow to use Firetooth). In fact half the party in the final Melissan fight was using slings while the two tanks hit her with repeated GW attacks.

[Tanaka Taikikku]

The reason only my clerics use slings is the pesky 1 APR!