Jaheira BG2 looks hard to replace

[Dorok]

I was going try continue Watchtower and bam once more Jaheira left and without sayign a word or any goodby, she hates me or what?

i'm a bit tired of her instability, so I started consider a definitive replacement. And I see nothing for my current party. For sure without Jaheira is fine but with my party she was a core element. I ignored both Anomen and Keldron and at this point I don't want bother with all the fuss with them. And anyway none has Iron Skins.

So just for the fun or arguing and party design, what would be a descent replacement out of Anomen and Keldron in party context I'm tedious to change now:
- MC Shadowmaster, mainly using long sword, staff and bow, and obviously quite focused on backstab.
- Hexxat using Crossbow and Dagger and backstab when possible.
- Mazzy only trained on short bow and short sword.
- Aerie
- Nalia.

Yeah yeah, Imoen was kicked out despite rescued, roleplay suspicious she is an infiltrate for the big evil and in charge to destroy party morale with constant whining and complains.

[Dorok]

Clockwerks eredeti hozzászólása:

stef.corsi eredeti hozzászólása:

About how the game use to be played nowaday also in EE. You play as you want but most of the people play with MC and NPCs. And that's not the point. I repeat. You suggest to dismiss NPC and create charactes since you discovered that built characters are stronger that NPC. Great, you discovered the wheel.
If someone wanted to do that he would do it and not ask hints in forum. Clear?

So basically, we can all play how we want but how dare I make a suggestion when someone makes a post asking about replacing a party member. Noted. Also can't help but notice how you seem a tad flustered over what I've said when all I did was give the OP another option. We're all free to play how we want but why is it OK for someone to make a whining post about a character and not OK for someone to suggest a real solution? The truth hurts I guess.

Guys, pointless arguing, this is out of topic, ok it's been quoted, no point argue more on that.

But more comments on Cleric Front and Tank are welcome, not for my current play that I chained from SoA to ToB, but for this ToB play, as I could trash the current because I read too many comment on backstabbing disabled in ToB which is a pain for a pure Thief Shadowmaster which was my MC coming from SoA.

[Dorok]

Volfogg eredeti hozzászólása:

Personally I don't have problems with some MC types in the frontline even if they lack fighter dices, my Blade MC from BG1 does well so far in the Underdark as a leader.

From what I read in some comments, Blade is the best Tank of all even if a bit more tricky to use because based on a special ability with short duration and disabling movements.

So yeah good for you, but my MC is Thief Shadowmaster, your comment is quite irrelevant. :-) Ok right I can get the companion who is a Blade, I know already. :-)

[Dorok]

Zotliatlicor eredeti hozzászólása:

Some things to consider:

Iron Skin is a "Tank" ability.
Seeking Sword of the Helm is not, it is an Offense Ability (DPS)

Priest Of Helm dual to thief does not give anything at all in regards to new weapon choices. All Clerics must go with Blunt, and the only Blunt to do Sneak Attacks with, originally, is the Club and Quarterstaff.

The Tankiness of Pure AND Multiclassed Clerics comes from beeing able to use the Best Full Plate and the Best shield, in combination with Combat Buffs.

Pure Priest with 18 in STR, CON and DEX can have 25 in all those scores for 10 round as often as they wish (lvl 1 spell DUHM). Without Gear.

Multiclass Fighter Clerics get Hardiness, and that one stacks with the Defender of Easthaven and lvl 1 Spell Armour of Faith for near immunity to physical damage. Even Pure Cleric can take a BIG HURT in this manner even without Hardiness.

Druids are great Tank's with several castings of Iron Skin, but lack in every aspect of DPS unless spells. Clerics are AWESOME tanks due to above mentions, with Heals, Buffs etc

With one little Spell a Cleric is the same as a Fighter and that is enough for a full encounter in most cases. Thac0, APR and all. One Spell. Druids do not have that.

It's not changing:
- Cleric won't get any fighters HLA, Jaheira will. Here is much better DPS for Jaheira.
- It's not a level 1 spell that will give to the cleric Fighter ATR, Jaheira will get at least 2.5 ATR don't know if more at higher levels. Here is better DPS for Jaheira.
- Jaheira can memorise multiple Iron Skin, A cleric doesn't even has one. No matter the AC that's effective better tanking.

Sure on paper Cleric is a war machine when cumulating all buff but when looking closer it makes lost a lot of time at fight start and it's important.

But one significant point for Cleric is they seems have better choice than druids for best weapons of the game along a play.

With Jaheria, no point bother on boredom pre buff or chain buff at combat start, that's also important for a companion you don't intend micro manage too much, when the MC shadowmaster already request excess of micro management.

[khumak]

Jaheira's main downside compared to a cleric is she can't use Flail of the Ages. Since most fighters end up using edged weapons, that usually means you need a cleric to use it unless you're going to give it to your main character. That no save slow on Flail of the Ages is just too good not to use IMO. That means SOMEONE in my party is going to use it, preferably someone with extra APR from some fighter levels. Jaheira can't do it.

Jaheira's purpose isn't really DPS though. It's her job to stand up front and laugh at the poor enemies who can barely scratch her while the rest of the party that IS focused on DPS kills everything. She's nothing special at that at low to mid level but at high level she's a freakin tank.

I would argue that Viconia is actually a better tank at low to mid level. I'm still in BG I right now and I can send Viconia in there with -10 unbuffed AC, 85% permanent magic resistance, 60% permanent fire resistance (over 100% if I bother to buff her). She'll stand there toe to toe completely surrounded by a large group of hard hitting enemies and take hardly any damage while Dynaheir sits back and drops fireballs and cloudkills on her and just lays waste to the whole screen. Anyone else in my party takes massive damage if they do that. Viconia usually doesn't even need any heals til the end of the fight.

I actually took Neera for all of BG I, but Neera isn't available for me yet in SoD. Have to say that evocation bonus Dynaheir gets is actually kind of nice. She has almost half of the total xp I've earned so far in SoD, even beating out my Kensai main for the number 1 spot.

[Zotliatlicor]

My last remark to #Dorok:

IF you compare two classes, you must compare Pure Druid to Pure Cleric
OR Fighter/Druid (Jaheira) to a Fighter/Cleric (MC) or even a Ranger/Cleric (MC).

A Multiclass Fighter/Cleric also get Hardiness and every other Fighter HLA of Choice, same as Jaheira. A Fighter dualed to Cleric can reach Grand Mastery in Blunt, and that matters. Fighter/Druid suffers from large XP holdout in the midgame, no big deal but Jaheira is at only 2 lvl 6 spells for a loooong time due to Druid xp/2.

Both Multiclass Fighter Druid and Cleric gets APR and good Thac0 from their Fighter levels. Both Pure Druid and Pure Cleric miss out on this but Cleric can Compensate with spells.

Jaheira is a Superb character. I have played with her more than any other Companion, and default to her Romance. But when you consider to not use her, playing a kind Of fighter cleric as Main Class (MC) is worth the consideration.

Ranger/Cleric most folks seem to miss out on, but Starting with two ** in Dual wield is very Strong early on. Fighter Cleric will reach a bit higher level and get a few more HLA's but starting out in Chapter 0 of BG2 you will have 6 + 2 stars in weapons and Fighter/Cleric only 6

I never said DUHM gives APR. But There are other Cleric Spells. To reach an acceptable APR you still need buffs from other party members no mattter what you do.

[Wicket W. Warrick]

Dorok eredeti hozzászólása:

stef.corsi eredeti hozzászólása:

Also 2 handed weapon is a good option,

Well can you make it a bit more explicit?
.

I think there's no need to powerplaying the game, and in fact you were always clear that you don't do it. Probably dual wielding is better, but it's not mandatory to finish the game and enjoing it. 2H weapons have some advantages, in damage, bonus, crit, range, etc., and so they will work fine.

Clockwerks eredeti hozzászólása:

So basically, we can all play how we want but how dare I make a suggestion when someone makes a post asking about replacing a party member. Noted. Also can't help but notice how you seem a tad flustered over what I've said when all I did was give the OP another option. We're all free to play how we want but why is it OK for someone to make a whining post about a character and not OK for someone to suggest a real solution?

I end this boring metadiscussion now, there's no need to quarrel. You are free to tell your opinion, I'm free to tell that you didn't understand the OP needs and so your answer doesn't have sense. Anyone is free. No one get offended. Cool down, dude.

Clockwerks eredeti hozzászólása:

The truth hurts I guess.

:D You're overestimating the importance of your posts in other player's life, I guess. :D

[Volfogg]

Personally I tend to start my characters in BG1 for RP-ing purposes, it takes longer to finish both playthroughs, but as a result MC has all benefits from BG1 tomes.

[Dorok]

@khumak:
I have no doubt Viconia is better tank during mane level. After like level 16+, it's more shared I believe, and when HLA comes In, there's no match with Jaheira.

I agree there's a serious imbalance for weapons, it's not only that druid weapons are more limited in types, but there are more best weapons for Cleric not Druid, most companions don't use any of best weapons for Cleric.

@Zotliatlicor:
It's not me that started suggest replace Jaheira with a cleric so I don't buy your argument on wrong comparison.

Ranger/Cleric there's multi class? I quoted there was dual, but it's been nerfed by EE that is there isn't anymore point to make this dual unlike in original games.

If there's a multi class Ranger/Cleric ok I'll check.

[Dorok]

Volfogg eredeti hozzászólása:

Personally I tend to start my characters in BG1 for RP-ing purposes, it takes longer to finish both playthroughs, but as a result MC has all benefits from BG1 tomes.

It's not a BG1 import, but at end of SoA I didn't bother turn my chaotic neutral into chaotic evil, with the idea that Shadowmaster isn't suited to ToB so let try with some more bonus.

In this play I don't have a strong MC and persist keep Hexxat, and don't regret she seems well developed along SoA and first parts of ToB.

So I already have my slowdown, I don't need more. :-)

[Wicket W. Warrick]

Dorok eredeti hozzászólása:

But more comments on Cleric Front and Tank are welcome, not for my current play that I chained from SoA to ToB, but for this ToB play, as I could trash the current because I read too many comment on backstabbing disabled in ToB which is a pain for a pure Thief Shadowmaster which was my MC coming from SoA.

I'm not quite sure what is the the object of the discussion, it seems that anyone is doing a differente comparison.

First, as already said, comapring NPCs with created characters doesn't make sense.
The comparison should be between a create cleric and a created fighter/druid, or between Viconia and Jaheira., but not mixing the 2 things.

If we talk only of a created cleric and other option as MC front and tank in ToB, I think there are some drawbacks.
The first problem is that using a cleric as a fighter will bring to an underpowered warrior. Buffs will bring to similar levels, but still weaker and wasteing spells. Why shoul a take a cleric if I want a warrior?
The lack of HLA is one big issue, both for tanking (hardness) and offense (whirlwind and others). Cleric HLA are mainly spells and summons and so high level spells. The only useful is globe of blades, very good in melee, but annoying because it hts also your companions.
Lower HP and lack of damage prevention spells (like stoneskin or mirror images) is another.
Long cast time is another problem expecially if you're in the front.
As a damage dealer, pure fighters will do better (like 2-3 times the killings). As a tank he could be a solution, but there can be better ones. Having a tank is not necessary in ToB, but that's up to you.

A fighter multi will work better, but will level slower.
At high level a cleric is more a supportive/casting character. He can be used in front line and as a tank, but not effective as other classes.

[Dorok]

@stef:
As a general topic of tanking and front that wasn't this thread, I agree it's a bit problematic to compare a MC with a companion. But I don't think it's what people intended do, more lack of clarity related to lack of precision to avoid too long posts.

Otherwise, that's the feeling I have, it's close to your post:
- Cleric front and tanking isn't a that good idea for high levels. And Viconia is a possible exception because of 50% magic resistance base that can be increased. But MC can't be Drow and if he could the games would allow him get 100% magic res lol.
- I'm still skeptical on Cleric even of Helm, good front for higher levels. As I started ToB already having some HLA it shifts a bit the perspective.
- Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Druid, no matter how the Druid can have better tanking and lower micro management and a few key spells no way minor. But Fighter/Cleric will have better front damage output thanks to better weapons but also with buff play at price of more micro management and not that fast to manage in combats first steps.
- Already quoted in older posts, best tanking will be MC Blade or Haer Dalis but at price of high micro management.

For BG2 companions perspective, tanking and front, I would say:
- Haer Dalis but with a serious micro management.
- Jaheira.
- Anomen.

Past it, it's more complex as game rules seem quite broken with greater haste boosting a lot too much damages of dual weapons, and still neglect shield tanking bonus with serious resistances increase is non sense for me, that's why i quote it's complicate.

If you give up dual weapon on a front, I would say Korgan which looks the best with shield and great 1H weapons for close range and long range, but with DEX bracer.

And I don't buy one second Aerie good front tank, too low HP, no Fighter HLA, too much micro management in front. But I suppose a MC Mage/Cleric or Cleric/Illusionist to play in front worth a consideration but this will also need a great roll at creation.

[Zotliatlicor]

Lol. On to other topics i guess. In the end the only thing that matter is to have a fun time while playing a cool game with great replay value.

[biogoo]

My best tank character so far was a cleric/illusionist. So perhaps Aerie could do the trick too? She wouldn't have as many spells and would also need some stat items, but that shouldn't stop her from being able to reach near impenetrable AC.

[Dorok]

Aerie has low HP but ok, later levels, by using intensively contingency and eventually sequencers for tanking purpose, perhaps Aerie can be a strong tanking despite the low HP.

But manage contingency and sequencers is so annoying, just a boredom design aspect of D&D.

[Zotliatlicor]

Aerie doesnt have any worse HP than any other Mage character, and she can be built to be Formidable at the front lines.

All the Companion NPC's come with weaknesses that can be overcome with gear & items.

I have Played Cleric/Illusionist, Cleric/Mage and Fighter/Cleric/Mage as Main Character and they all become Invincible Gods Of Murder.

The Beauty Of Aerie, although weak in the beginning, as all mages are, she can get great benefits of the various Squencer spells. The Ability to put Clerical spells in tandem with Wizardry in Sequencers is STRONG, and very fun and rewarding.

Aerie with Robe of Vecna can cast Clerical spells just as fast as Wizard spells. And that is huge difference on the Battlefield.