Huh, why would you run Keldorn over Haer'Dalis, outside of roleplay?

[Too Much Marijuana]

Haer'dalis is a tiefling, so he has superior resistances which are the ultimate defensive stat, they don't lose their effectiveness later on when dudes have enormous pools of dice to hit you with. Now, Keldorn does have the Firecam Plate of Free Action which is ♥♥♥♥♥♥' awesome. I give him that. However, Haer is a blade, so he levels up fast-so his dispel magic is going to have a similar high spell effect. Plus he can choose to cast Remove Magic instead. Haer isn't a pushy Paladin so he doesn't disallow certain party compositions. I like Keldorn, for a paladin he's surprisingly chill, but he still sets certain hard rules of who can be in the party. Meanwhile Haer is this trippy doomguard or whatever and he's like, gnarly.

The only thing I can see is that Keldorn has True Sight, but Haer'Dalis has Offensive and Defensive spin, and an entire spellbook of mage spells, and he can nuke dudes with stuff like Skull Trap, plus he gets swag HLA's like use any item or spike trap which, weirdly, acts as if haer'dalis has 100% points in set trap.

[Kamuizin]

First lemme display the Tiefling Immunities:

50% cold resistance
25% fire resistance
25% electricity resistance
15% physical.resistance (pretty nice).

Haer'Dalis

1 - Bard Thac0 per level (-1 at each 2 levels).
2 - Bards are limited to level 6 spells in BG2
3 - Haer Dalis constitution is crap and Bards use 1d6 to hit dice.
4 - proficiency limited to 1 point (2 for short swords and later, 2 to long swords, as long you put one point in long sword before level 15).
5 - As a Bard, only elven armor and one specific bard armor found in planar prision are usable by him.

Keldorn

1 - Paladin Thac0 per level (-1 per level)
2 - Inquisitor is a paladin of cheese, one of the best classes of BG2 and more anti-mage than wizard slayer itself.
3 - Dex 9 can be turned around with gauntlets of dexterity. The constitution belt that could work for Haer'Dalis is time based.
4 - You can change Keldorn's armor.
5 - Carsomyr.

Just for knowledge, Haer'Dalis 2 proficiency in short/long swords is a feature to simulate his faction - doomguard - from sigil, as they gain +1 to hit and damage with blade weapons (as far as i know). Why the game didn't give them this directly i don't know, as elf race receive +1 to hit and damage with long bows and long swords.

HLAs are late game features, only touched at end SoA and Tob parts of the game, so strategize a character based on them isn't the best outcome.

Overall both characters are pretty good, but Haer'Dalis need someone with game knowledge, a newbie in BG2 will fare way better with Keldorn than Haer'Dalis.

Obs: As far as i know Keldorn has 4 conflicts in the game:


Hexxat - Pretty obvious
Dorn - Pretty obvious
Anomen (if fail knighthood) - In fact it's Anomen that has a problem with him more than the other way around
Viconia - racist paladin, well, it's expected in forgotten realms, being at the side of an Evil Drow that worship one of the most powerful evil deities and being from a class of ... inquisitors.

In good themed parties i will always tend to keep Keldorn over Haer'Dalis. In Old BG2 Chaotic Neutral Anomen and Haer'Dalis were my options for change of scenery, now i just play with him when i like.

Roleplay wise both have great functions, as Haer'Dalis will flirt with Aerie (making a triangle love if MC date her), and Keldorn will improve Minsc rage, making it controlable (need confirmation).

Edit: Haer'Dalis don't receive the extra attacks at level 7 and 13 as warriors do.

[Zotliatlicor]

The Costitution Belt last for 8 hours, and that should be enough. It refresh on rest.

Haerdalis is like a light Fighter / Mage Multiclass, only he levels faster in the beginning and has Thac0 on par with a MC Fighter Mage.

Fighter max out at lvl 21 with base Thac0 of 0, Bards / Rogues max at lvl 22 with base Thac0 of 10. So a Bard will always be 10 behind. But he has spells.

This explains why Swashbuckler is so godly, with his +1 /lvl adjustment.

Keldorn will always have a better Dispel than Haerdalis. His x2 is much bigger than Haerdalis' Higher levels, which is about max 9 levels above (ie Pal 30 >< Bard 39), and some say Inquisitors Dispel max at lvl 20 for the lvl 40 effect. Bard will reach lvl 40 at last level and only then be equal to Paladins.

[New Moon On Monday]

Keldorn is excellent as a mage-killer, and that's the main reason to keep him. But there is more than one way to kill a mage. If you have alternate good strategies for dealing with mages, you don't need Keldorn.

Also, managing personality conflicts among your companions is a part of the game in Baldur's Gate. If he doesn't play well with others, that's a fine reason to leave him behind and not invite him back.

It's also fine, in Chapter 2, to just experiment with different party compositions to see what works. To a certain extent, the quests that are tied to companions nudge you to do quite a bit of party shuffling anyway. If you leave someone behind for quest or two then decide to come back to them, they won't fall that far behind in levels. So try swapping out Keldorn for Haer'Dalis for a while; if it doesn't work out, you can always swap back. Or take both.

[Too Much Marijuana]

Originally posted by Zotliatlicor:

The Costitution Belt last for 8 hours, and that should be enough. It refresh on rest.

Haerdalis is like a light Fighter / Mage Multiclass, only he levels faster in the beginning and has Thac0 on par with a MC Fighter Mage

he's like a light fighter / mage multiclass, only he is not as fantastic at melee in and of itself as a fighter, and makes up for it by being able to cheese stuff like Minute Meteors with offensive spin and Skull Trap/Dispel Magic/Remove Magic with fast bard levels.

[Too Much Marijuana]

Originally posted by Kamuizin:

First lemme display the Tiefling Immunities:

50% cold resistance
25% fire resistance
25% electricity resistance
15% physical.resistance (pretty nice).

Haer'Dalis

1 - Bard Thac0 per level (-1 at each 2 levels).
2 - Bards are limited to level 6 spells in BG2
3 - Haer Dalis constitution is crap and Bards use 1d6 to hit dice.
4 - proficiency limited to 1 point (2 for short swords and later, 2 to long swords, as long you put one point in long sword before level 15).
5 - As a Bard, only elven armor and one specific bard armor found in planar prision are usable by him.

Keldorn

1 - Paladin Thac0 per level (-1 per level)
2 - Inquisitor is a paladin of cheese, one of the best classes of BG2 and more anti-mage than wizard slayer itself.
3 - Dex 9 can be turned around with gauntlets of dexterity. The constitution belt that could work for Haer'Dalis is time based.
4 - You can change Keldorn's armor.
5 - Carsomyr.

Just for knowledge, Haer'Dalis 2 proficiency in short/long swords is a feature to simulate his faction - doomguard - from sigil, as they gain +1 to hit and damage with blade weapons (as far as i know). Why the game didn't give them this directly i don't know, as elf race receive +1 to hit and damage with long bows and long swords.

HLAs are late game features, only touched at end SoA and Tob parts of the game, so strategize a character based on them isn't the best outcome.

Overall both characters are pretty good, but Haer'Dalis need someone with game knowledge, a newbie in BG2 will fare way better with Keldorn than Haer'Dalis.

Obs: As far as i know Keldorn has 4 conflicts in the game:


Hexxat - Pretty obvious
Dorn - Pretty obvious
Anomen (if fail knighthood) - In fact it's Anomen that has a problem with him more than the other way around
Viconia - racist paladin, well, it's expected in forgotten realms, being at the side of an Evil Drow that worship one of the most powerful evil deities and being from a class of ... inquisitors.

In good themed parties i will always tend to keep Keldorn over Haer'Dalis. In Old BG2 Chaotic Neutral Anomen and Haer'Dalis were my options for change of scenery, now i just play with him when i like.

Roleplay wise both have great functions, as Haer'Dalis will flirt with Aerie (making a triangle love if MC date her), and Keldorn will improve Minsc rage, making it controlable (need confirmation).

Edit: Haer'Dalis don't receive the extra attacks at level 7 and 13 as warriors do.

you make some good points, the main reason why i'm favoring Haer over Keldorn is that there's only one set of dexterity gauntlets, and i'm using Anomen as my priest because I can't use Viconia and Keldorn, Jaheira seemingly cannot even *learn* restoration spells that remove level drain, and Aerie won't hang out with Korgan. Anomen needs the gauntlets of dex, which would leave a dex 9 frontliner in Keldorn. Also, CHARNAME is an Undead Hunter, so she can eventually use Carsomyr anyways.

[Kamuizin]

Then, for this gameplay, you have your answer.

[Bibibobaba]

""Originally posted by Kamuizin:
First lemme display the Tiefling Immunities:
...
3 - Haer Dalis constitution is crap and Bards use 1d6 to hit dice.
4 - proficiency limited to 1 point (2 for short swords and later, 2 to long swords, as long you put one point in long sword before level 15).
5 - As a Bard, only elven armor and one specific bard armor are usable by him.
....
2 - Inquisitor is a paladin of cheese, one of the best classes of BG2 and more anti-mage than wizard slayer itself
...""

Blade Dancer are probably the worst kit of the game. A melee bard, 1d6 hd and only 1 slot profiency!!? You need to always put your armor on and off until you got the elven chain.
Just for the true-seing spell inquisitor are awesone.

[Zotliatlicor]

Originally posted by crazyboule:

Blade Dancer are probably the worst kit of the game. A melee bard, 1d6 hd and only 1 slot profiency!!? You need to always put your armor on and off until you got the elven chain.
Just for the true-seing spell inquisitor are awesone.

I think you are using your Blade in the wrong way after this statement. How would you use a Fighter Mage? Would you take off and put on armour for every fight?

Blade's Should use Spells like Armour, Ghost Armour, Spirit Armour, Shield, Blur, Mirror Image and Stoneskin until you get hold of some Armour that allows spellcasting.

And while "your" Blade is 1 star proficient, Haerdalis has 2. He is made for Dual wielding and gets 3 point allowed in Dual weapon Fighting. If you choose to get proficient in other things, you are using it wrong. Yes, that means no Carsomyr for Blades. Two weapon wielding.

Dakkons Zerth Katana is so incredible good in the off hand of any Bard, and you only need 1 point in Katanas to use it Off hand.

Both the Offensive Spin and Defensive Spin are Cheese. Pure Blissful Cheddar Cheese.

[Kamuizin]

The quest i covered in spoiler, is made almost imediatelly after you bring Haer'Dalis back to Raelis Shai. You get the armor before you get Haer'Dalis as permanent NPC in party.

Still, if you really wish to postpone that quest, just get him a bracer of defense AC3 or 4 with Ribald in the Adventure's Mart.

There's no (or rarely few) useless classes in Baldur's Gate. In the hands of who know what he's doing, everyone can shine (even Nalia).

[New Moon On Monday]

I don't think Keldorn is a tank. If he's using a two-handed weapon, he's not using a shield. He doesn't get to cast Armor of Faith. My experience with him is that if I let enemies target him, they'd chew him up fast. He is better off using that two-handed weapon with long reach safely behind a true tank.

I have never used Haer-Dalis, but I would probably take a similar approach. I would not rush him into battle. Instead, I would wait until enemies were locked on my tank, then I would let Haer-Dalis join and go into Cuisinart mode. I would have to be a little more careful about placement in battle, since he doesn't have the reach of a two-handed weapon.

You can control most battles by exposing only one character to risk, and letting the other five participate- with melee or missiles or spells or whatever- without a single attack attempted on them. You need a Plan B for the few battles you cannot control like that. For Haer-Dalis, there are all those protective spells.

[Zotliatlicor]

Bard will get his lvl 6 spell slot at lvl 16, at 1.320.000 XP.

Your pure Fighters are lvl 13 at this moment, Your Paladin or Ranges are lvl 12. Your Multiclass Fighter / Mage are at lvl 10/11.

So after casting Tensers Transformation do the math on how good fighter Herdalis is, as a lvl 16 Fighter. The F/M is his higest level class turned to fighter, 11.

If you Dual a warrior at lvl 9, you will be lvl 12 Mage now, (750.000 XP). And if you dual a warrior at lvl 13, you will be lvl 7 mage now, (60.000 XP) so that is out of the count.

Bards in combat is a Tenser thing. And Blades Spin's are just on top af it all.

Having Haerdalis with a good Spell armour or the Bard Armour you get, and with Fireshields on, Tensered and imroved Hasted and the rest of the vanilla buffs (Stoneskin, MI etc) is a killer.

[red255]

why are people being so easily trolled.

i don't take keldorn because he has a family and he should retire and theres no need to use him. I'll just take mazzy, she'll be fine.

this is more of a roleplay reason, but yeah. Wouldn't compare haerdalis to a tank. Compare Keldorn to Mazzy or dornDorn, or Valgar or Minsc.

Compare haerdalis to... I mean maybe jan jansen?

Haerdalis gets thief HLA so he gets epic spike traps, and scribe scroll/brew potion. he's got spells and lore.... LORE.

[Zotliatlicor]

No problem there, red255.

Just traditionally, a tank is able to stand and take on the hordes defensively. It seems most think Keldorn with his lack of AC and his tendency for 2-H (and thus no shield) makes him more of a DPS than a Tank.

I dont feel any trolling today, the talk was about the Dispels, the Spins and the how and why Haerdalis vs Keldorn. Haerdalis "can" be compared to both a Tank and a Damage Dealer, due to his Spin's. And Spells. And Innate Abilities. I think the Comparison is interesting.

[ÄmJii]

Originally posted by Zotliatlicor:

No problem there, red255.

Just traditionally, a tank is able to stand and take on the hordes defensively. It seems most think Keldorn with his lack of AC and his tendency for 2-H (and thus no shield) makes him more of a DPS than a Tank.

I dont feel any trolling today, the talk was about the Dispels, the Spins and the how and why Haerdalis vs Keldorn. Haerdalis "can" be compared to both a Tank and a Damage Dealer, due to his Spin's. And Spells. And Innate Abilities. I think the Comparison is interesting.

To be fair, once you hit ToB your AC doesn't matter. Unless you're Haer'Dalis and buff yourself all the way to -20 and toss in Improved Invisibility, and even then you're not just magically dodging all the incoming hits. Haer'Dalis does have the Mirror Image + Stoneskin combo, which automatically makes him a superior tank... against physical hits. Keldorn with Carsomyr + Cloak of Mirroring is nigh-impervious to spellcasters.

Against physical hitters, multiclassed Fighter/Cleric also makes a superb tank: Armor of Faith + Defender of Easthaven + Hardiness HLA puts him/her at 80% physical resistance.

Or just use Mordenkainen's Sword summons. They're entirely immune to physical damage.

[Bibibobaba]

Originally posted by Zotliatlicor:

Originally posted by crazyboule:

Blade Dancer are probably the worst kit of the game. A melee bard, 1d6 hd and only 1 slot profiency!!? You need to always put your armor on and off until you got the elven chain.
Just for the true-seing spell inquisitor are awesone.

I think you are using your Blade in the wrong way after this statement. How would you use a Fighter Mage? Would you take off and put on armour for every fight?

Blade's Should use Spells like Armour, Ghost Armour, Spirit Armour, Shield, Blur, Mirror Image and Stoneskin until you get hold of some Armour that allows spellcasting.

And while "your" Blade is 1 star proficient, Haerdalis has 2. He is made for Dual wielding and gets 3 point allowed in Dual weapon Fighting. If you choose to get proficient in other things, you are using it wrong. Yes, that means no Carsomyr for Blades. Two weapon wielding.

Dakkons Zerth Katana is so incredible good in the off hand of any Bard, and you only need 1 point in Katanas to use it Off hand.

Both the Offensive Spin and Defensive Spin are Cheese. Pure Blissful Cheddar Cheese.

I agree with you Haer'Dalis his better than a normal Blade and katanas are strong in Bg2. And he come already with his own mail.
But fighter mage are far in my book, it my opinion, I prefer thief illuisionist. I know some spell like tanser transformation, mordenkein sword are OP but how the 2nd edition work I dont really like them. In 3nd edition it another story lot of class work great with some level of fighter.
The first time I played Bg2 I remember Keldorn was my favorite new companion and Haer'Dalis my less. So I think it always stayed in my subconscienness. So if you ask witch one to choose between both the choice is not difficult at all ;-)