Putting points into offhand weapon?

[N8tronic]

I asked this in my other thread but didnt get answered.
Is it worth it to put points in an offhand weapon? Like for instance I plan on using belm in my offhand is it worth it to put proficiency points into scimitars? Or does offhand not really benefit much from proficiency?
Or is it just better to put points into another mainhand like hammers and just swap out main handers and keep belm in the off hand.
Does belm offhand work for the entire game? Or does it lose power at endgame and a better offhand with+5 would be a better choice? Since i put points into hammers crom can go into the offhand and since its a +5 and has proficiency points it will be better than belm?

[AlexMBrennan]

The point of belm/kundane/scarlet ninjato is to give you more attacks with your main hand weapon so for this build it really doesn't matter if you hit or miss with the offhand weapon (later on enemies will be outright immune to the offhand weapon but you keep using it anyway hitting the enemy with your main hand weapon is where the damage comes from).

As such, I would invest points in scimitars only after you have exhausted literally everything else (primary main hand, missile, backup main hand for immune enemies).

Since i put points into hammers crom can go into the offhand and since its a +5 and has proficiency points it will be better than belm?

I doubt it? You'll end up with a natural 22 strength by ToB anyway so using CF to boost your strength buys you a mere +3 THACO, +4 damage - you are better off using one of the above speed weapons to hit the enemy one extra time per round with your main hand weapon.

[N8tronic]

Originally posted by AlexMBrennan:

The point of belm/kundane/scarlet ninjato is to give you more attacks with your main hand weapon so for this build it really doesn't matter if you hit or miss with the offhand weapon (later on enemies will be outright immune to the offhand weapon but you keep using it anyway hitting the enemy with your main hand weapon is where the damage comes from).

As such, I would invest points in scimitars only after you have exhausted literally everything else (primary main hand, missile, backup main hand for immune enemies).

Since i put points into hammers crom can go into the offhand and since its a +5 and has proficiency points it will be better than belm?

I doubt it? You'll end up with a natural 22 strength by ToB anyway so using CF to boost your strength buys you a mere +3 THACO, +4 damage - you are better off using one of the above speed weapons to hit the enemy one extra time per round with your main hand weapon.

Im importing my bg1 char over and he will have 3-4 in long swords and 3 in dual wield. So if you dont bother putting points into your off hand then i guess i will finish longswords and then start on hammers or possibly flails im not sure. If i did put points into scimitars 4-5 would that make belm hit late game?

[AlexMBrennan]

If i did put points into scimitars 4-5 would that make belm hit late game?

No. Belm is a +2 weapon, which determines which enemies can be damaged by it and no amount of proficiency points will change that.

[N8tronic]

Originally posted by AlexMBrennan:

If i did put points into scimitars 4-5 would that make belm hit late game?

No. Belm is a +2 weapon, which determines which enemies can be damaged by it and no amount of proficiency points will change that.

Will Belm be able to hit anything late game? If not then im essentially losing an attack because belm wont hit anyway in which case having a stronger weapon that actually hits in the offhand wouldnt be better?
I thought +2 was just that it has +2 damage and thaco. How can i know if an enemy needs a stronger weapon to damage?
Ok my misunderstanding was under the impression that putting prof points into a weapon would give it +. Like 3 points into longswords would make normal longswords into +3 or +3 into +6. Thanks for the clarifications.

[Tasi]

Hi again,
lets take it more generally:
You are looking for the highest damage-per-second. In order to reach that there are several conditions you have to meet:

• Weapon has to be capable of affecting target. Some enemies are immune to non-magical weapons (like e.g. vampires) and later some enemies are immune to lower enchantment bonus (the most tough enemies requires +4 or better weapons). There is even second perspective: some enemies requires weapon with particular damage type (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning).
  
• You have to hit the target (THAC0). Because of nature of D&D rules significance of this variable vary at different levels. While high AC and THAC0 is extremely important in the beginning (BG1 and yearly BG2) it becomes less important later in BG2. More-or-less late tough enemies will have AC around -10 and reaching THAC0 -10 (in order have 95% of hitting them) is in the range of several different builds without any problem.
  
• You would like to have high damage-per-hit. This is affected by weapon, proficiency with weapon, special bonuses from other items (like some bracers), strength, innate (kit) bonuses, special abilities bonuses, spell buffs. Not much to say I guess... just buff yourself, use your abilities, raise your strength, etc...
  
• You want to have high number of attacks per round. This variable is the most limiting factor and it actually is probable the most important reason why multi-/dual-class fighters are so good. Natural number of attacks (actions) for everybody is 1 per round (=6 seconds). Only fighters get bonus to number of attacks per round (at level 7th + half attacks/round and level 13th +another half attack/round - hence popularity of these levels to dual-class at). Additional bonus is for proficiency with weapon - again, only fighters get benefit from that even if some other class/kit can reach better proficiency with weapon. Only proficiency with main-hand weapon counts (off-hand is ignored) in order to increase number of attacks: +half attack for 2 pips in weapon (Specialized) and another +half for 5 pips in weapon (Grand Master). Is there any other way how to improve number of attacks? Well... off-hand weapon gives you +1 attack but that +1 attacks is done with that off-hand weapon. There is also some items which gives you +attacks/round (bracers and some special weapons like Belm). This bonus is always given to main-hand weapon. There are also 2 well known spells: Haste and Improved Haste. Spell Haste improves your attack per round to the nearest higher natural (ordinal) number (so gives you either +half or +1 attack) . At this point it may be useful to mention that (with exception I will mention) maximum for number of attacks per round is 5. Improve Haste spell bypass this limit - doubles it, so the real limit with using Improved Hasted is 10 attacks per round (this also means that your off-hand weapon, if you have one, will attack twice per round! It will be 4 attacks main-hand, 1 attack off-hand, 4 attacks main-hand and again 1 attack off-hand). There are some more ways how to temporally increase number of attacks (like fighter's High Level Ability Whirlwind or blade's Offensive Spin).
  From perspective of power-gaming it is important that maximum number of attacks is 10. In case of dualing fighter players usually reaches that number by using Two Weapon Fighting (+1 with off-hand weapon and additional +1 with main-hand by using e.g. Belm) and under effect of spell Improved Haste. This leaves them with 8 attacks with main-hand and 2 attacks with off-hand)

So now lets go back to your question:

Originally posted by N8tronic:

Like for instance I plan on using belm in my offhand is it worth it to put proficiency points into scimitars? Or does offhand not really benefit much from proficiency?

What will be effect of improving proficiency with your off-hand weapon?
For 20% of your attacks you will have THAC0 and damage increase. Well... you would have if your off-hand weapon has high enough enchantment to be able to harm the target. Most of the time you are fine. Well... except of targets you needs that the most (or if you are using another weapon which does not have +1 attack/round property but rather has higher enchantment and even some other useful buff).

Originally posted by N8tronic:

Or is it just better to put points into another mainhand like hammers and just swap out main handers and keep belm in the off hand.

I guess we are at the point where it plays role your personal preference.

Originally posted by N8tronic:

Does belm offhand work for the entire game? Or does it lose power at endgame and a better offhand with+5 would be a better choice? Since i put points into hammers crom can go into the offhand and since its a +5 and has proficiency points it will be better than belm?

Ask yourself: Is it better to rather have (against very difficult enemies immune to Belm) 8 attacks with main hand and 2 attacks which are worthless OR having 6 attacks with main-hand and 2 additional useful attacks with offhand (and this off-hand potentially brings another useful buff/debuff)?