BG2 level cap and HLAs

[Maalox]

I'm doing my first runthrough of BG2, and reading various forums has gotten me very excited for the HLAs, but my understanding is that you don't get them until the end of SoA. Is this true? I've also read that ToB is VERY short. So if that's also true, what's to get excited about if I get these amazing abilities for 5% of my whole BG experience? Am I missing something here?

[D'amarr from Darshiva]

Wow, you've thrown in some stuff - what a confusion!

Most classes can learn HLAs when they have gained three million XP. That is around level 18-24 depending on class. And yes, with a full party that happens still within SoA.

How many XP you can gain per character depends on the size of your party and whether you do a completionist playthrough, including as many optional quests as possible and relearning as many arcane spells from scrolls as you can buy and find.

Play with less than six companions in your party, and you can reach high levels and HLAs earlier.

ToB is just an expansion, but to call it "VERY short" without giving any rationale makes no sense.

And finally, you can start SoA and import exported high-level characters.

[Maalox]

Originally posted by D'amarr from Darshiva:

Wow, you've thrown in some stuff - what a confusion!

Most classes can learn HLAs when they have gained three million XP. That is around level 18-24 depending on class. And yes, with a full party that happens still within SoA.

How many XP you can gain per character depends on the size of your party and whether you do a completionist playthrough, including as many optional quests as possible and relearning as many arcane spells from scrolls as you can buy and find.

Play with less than six companions in your party, and you can reach high levels and HLAs earlier.

ToB is just an expansion, but to call it "VERY short" without giving any rationale makes no sense.

And finally, you can start SoA and import exported high-level characters.

So it sounds like my assessment is more or less correct, which is extremely disappointing. I've been trying to decide on a class to play, and as an example I read a lot about how versatile the fighter/thief is. Without UAI he's a thief that can stay in melee after his backstab. UAI and the traps are the ENTIRETY of his versatility outside of standard thief abilities. If that's basically endgame, that's not a versatile class. That's a great class that gets versatility at the end of the game.

Sorry, I'm just not understanding the HLA hype because there's hardly any game left to have fun with them in! This is especially confusing as everyone talks about every class with their HLAs included. I know that I don't have to tell you that a critique of a class is VERY different if you don't count HLAs. So basically I have no idea how the classes all really play the majority of the game, because all the info out there is for endgame!

[CaimDark]

I don't get the "HLA hype" either, mostly because I've never seen any! Sure, they are nice, but they are hardly game changing or revolutionary. You'll summon more powerful creatues, or hit very hard for a round or two, for instance, it's not like you'll be doing completely new things. and as the name implies, they are high-level abilites, meaning endgame.

But "endgame" doesn't mean "a few final bosses". As Darshiva said, if you explore and do every quest with a full party, you'll start getting HLAs long before Shadows of Amn ends. And if you have less people in the party, you get more XP, level up faster and get the HLAs faster.

As for Throne of Bhaal being very short, well, it's 25-30 hours long! It's only "short" because SoA is freaking massive!

Btw, if you really want as many HLAs as possible, as early as possible, you'll want to favor single or dual classes and avoid multi-classes since they gain levels much more slowly.

[Maalox]

Originally posted by CaimDark:

I don't get the "HLA hype" either, mostly because I've never seen any! Sure, they are nice, but they are hardly game changing or revolutionary. You'll summon more powerful creatues, or hit very hard for a round or two, for instance, it's not like you'll be doing completely new things. and as the name implies, they are high-level abilites, meaning endgame.

But "endgame" doesn't mean "a few final bosses". As Darshiva said, if you explore and do every quest with a full party, you'll start getting HLAs long before Shadows of Amn ends. And if you have less people in the party, you get more XP, level up faster and get the HLAs faster.

As for Throne of Bhaal being very short, well, it's 25-30 hours long! It's only "short" because SoA is freaking massive!

Btw, if you really want as many HLAs as possible, as early as possible, you'll want to favor single or dual classes and avoid multi-classes since they gain levels much more slowly.

That's good to know. I definitely do all the quest content I possibly can.

This information is so frustrating to look up online. There's TONS of info and discussions out there, and over half of it is people calling each other names while disputing each other's math to see which ridiculous duel class can do the most overkill in scenarios the game probably doesn't even have in it. I literally feel bad for new players to this series. The powergamers seriously need to reign it in. This isn't World of Warcraft. It's an ACTUAL rpg.

[CaimDark]

Unless you're playing on the very high difficulty levels, the game is easy enough that powergaming is 100% unneessary. On core difficulty, as long as you don't rush and have essential roles covered (frontline fighter, arcane caster, divine caster, thief), you can safely choose your favorite npcs and forget about powergaming.

In the last couple of hours I killed a red dragon in the Watchers Keep and the most powerful optional boss, which is in theory the hardest fight in SoA, and I stomped both of them in seconds without anyone losing a single hit point simply because I'm super high level, not because I have the most powerful party ever.

[guttahtrash]

I agree. HLAs are neat, but nothing to build a character around. The majority of the game is without them.

I like the Fighter/Thief myself just for normal gaming. I don't feel they lose anything from either class, and they gain from both.

Second, it frees me up to pick who I want for companions.

Third, It's less character shuffling when I spot a trap or have to unlock something.

When my current F/T gets HLAs, it's not going to change the way I play it at all.

[Maalox]

I actually started a F/T recently and was having a lot of fun with it, but I started a Blade just to get a feel for it and I can't stop playing it. The Blade is like no other class to me. He isn't super strong, but he can do a little of everything, and THAT is what makes him strong. He has the kind of versatility other classes dream about. It's pretty damn fun.

[voehringer_nitron]

Eh, I've never been a big fan of Bards as my PC. Bards are support characters, and I just dont feel right playing that way. Garrick in part one was okay, but nothing special. Eldoth was even more meh, plus you had to deal with Skie, an incredibly annoying character IMHO. Of course she could always meet some sort of unfortunate accident, if you wanted to keep Eldoth. I've taken Haer'Dalis with me on several occasions, not as frequently as somebody like Jaheira or Keldorn, but enough.

Now, Bards in Icewind Dale (moreso with Heart of Winter installed) and especially Icewind Dale 2 are better. As they leveled up, they gained access to new and better songs. In IWD 2 they could cast higher level spells, not to mention more healing and support spells. The Lingering Song feat allowed the effects of their songs to last 2 rounds after they stopped singing, freeing them up to cast a few spells or make some attacks. Plus with BAB, they could make multiple attacks per round. I frequently had a Bard in my party.

I have 2 playthroughs I'm working on now. A Fighter/Thief in a full party of six. MY PC got his first HLA at the end of Suldanesselar and I'm on the second floor of Watcher's Keep before I go after Yaga-Shura. The other is a solo Cleric/Mage. Just cleared out the Slaver Stockade and I'm level 9/10.

[wendigo211]

I love my 3rd Ed. Bards, but 2nd Ed and lower are useless.

The problem is D&D (paritcularly the lower editions) rewards specialists, and Bards are quite the opposite. The only good thing about them is that they level quickly so they do well with caster level dependent spells like dispel magic.

It's a problem all the hybrid classes have, the Fighter is a better warrior than either the Paladin or the Ranger. The Cleric is a better buffer/healer than the Paladin, the Thief is a better party scout than the Ranger. Even with the sacrifices that multiclass characters make a Fighter/Cleric is a better "holy warrior" than a Paladin, the Fighter/Thief is a better "scout/skirmisher" than the Ranger and the Fighter/Mage/Thief is a better "bard" than the Bard.

[red255]

*Skims topic*

BG2:SOA had a level cap of something like 2.95 Million.

HLA kick in at 3 million at every level up. but having ToB installed gets your level cap increased to 8 million in SoA.

theres enough XP in SoA if you do everything including watchers keep to get a 6 man party to like 4 million. maybe more with the New companion quests which seemed to be somewhat lengthy and generous with the XP rewards.

if you run a party SMALLER than 6 mans you'd level up faster.

Strong builds are generally for people who are soloing the game, and will hit the 8 million XP cap rather rapidly in SoA. getting their HLA.

I played thru as a Kensai, dualed to thief at 12. I did it with a party. I had the bonus vampire thief in my party Hexxat until I hit 12, then I dualed and no longer used her as my Main was the parties thief. well, after he got a quick 5 levels in thief at least.

made thief 39 by the end of ToB.

as for when HLA kick in. they kick in at 3 million XP.

you start the game with 250,000 XP or 500,000 XP if you did Siege of dragonspear. Assuming a full party you'll get to HLA generally in the underdark section of the main quest. the XP rewards for the Underdark section quests are quite high.

you get 250-500,000 XP generally as an XP reward from a major side quest. but yeah. you'll start getting HLA before the end of SoA. not that you should use them since the level cap should be shy of 3 million.

[Leeux]

ToB is not that short... you can speed run it and it'll probably take you ~40 mins to do all? But if you play it normally, it's about ~6 to ~10hs of content, that's a guesstimate... depending on how much you roflstomp stuff, or how much they roflstomp you :)

But yeah, it's a small portion of time compared to the whole of the series... but HLA are supposed to be extra epic level stuff that only gets used when you reach those extra epic levels.

And you'll be using them a lot in ToB... and you're gonna be target of enemies using them on you too :P

[ÄmJii]

Originally posted by voehringer_nitron:

Now, Bards in Icewind Dale (moreso with Heart of Winter installed) and especially Icewind Dale 2 are better. As they leveled up, they gained access to new and better songs. In IWD 2 they could cast higher level spells, not to mention more healing and support spells. The Lingering Song feat allowed the effects of their songs to last 2 rounds after they stopped singing, freeing them up to cast a few spells or make some attacks. Plus with BAB, they could make multiple attacks per round. I frequently had a Bard in my party.

Hell yeah, 3rd edition Bard are better in every aspect!
My favorite IWD 2 HoF-difficulty playthrough involved five multiclassed Bards (to either Sorc or Cleric) + lots of summons. On 5th level Bards gain new bard song Tymora's Melody which adds +1 to Luck (which in turn improves Attack Rolls themself rather than Attack Bonus -> more likely to roll 20), had all my bards singing it for +5 Luck bonus... needless to say there were crits all over the place, even the super-damage-sponge HoF enemies didn't last long.

It's amazing what a little extra attacks per round & ability to dual/multiclass does to a class.
Likewise pure Clerics and Thieves got massive improvements over their AD&D counterparts.

Originally posted by wendigo211:

I love my 3rd Ed. Bards, but 2nd Ed and lower are useless.

The problem is D&D (paritcularly the lower editions) rewards specialists, and Bards are quite the opposite. The only good thing about them is that they level quickly so they do well with caster level dependent spells like dispel magic.

This is also very true. Barring all Enhanced Bard Song +Mislead/Simulacrum shenanigans there's no real practical reason to pick up a Bard over a Fighter/Mage or a Thief/Mage. If 2nd Ed Bards had some "Once per day" abilities (Charm/Dominate -spells or such) they'd clearly have their own niche, but currently they just feel gimped Mages with minor pickpocketing skills.