River pollution and river flow

[Lord-Vivec]

I am building a recreation of Skopje, the capital of Macedonia, notorious for for having one of the highest pollution levels in Europe. After achieving 20k residents I noticed that out of nowhere, my water pollution levels went through the roof. I had been pumping my sewage into the far end of the Vardar river, and the water went downstream for almost 10 years. Now, all of a sudden, the river flow has reversed without me noticing it, polluted water from the sewage reached the water pumping stations, and half of the population died because I did not have the reserves to build that many clinics.

I eventually thought this happened because I build a metro line underneath the Vardar river, but this seemed unlikely. I built industry close to the river but that should not change the flow of the river. What can cause a river to change its flow from downstream to upstream so radically?

[Quo]

The amount of sewage outflow can cause this. Also, if you built dams anywhere it could lead to this too.

[Lord-Vivec]

There were no dams. I presume the water pumps sucked the stream back in and reversed it. Is it possible to edit the custom map after having build a city?

[Tyrant]

sometimes a dam can be used to act as a barrier for your drinking water instead of power generation. its a very sore cost but sometimes its needed.

however some people have used damns to trap sewage in order to boost the dams power generation aswell XD

P.S at 20 K residents you should be verywell be able to build sewage treatment plants.
the water will still be discoloured but it wont be as dangerus as the raw sewage

[grapplehoeker]

Originally posted by Lord Vivec:

Now, all of a sudden, the river flow has reversed without me noticing it...
What can cause a river to change its flow from downstream to upstream so radically?

To answer that you have to ask the person who created your map, or open the map yourself in the map editor and look for the water sources.
There may be a water source downstream as well as one upstream. This is likely the cause. The intensity of the water source downstream is stronger than the one upstream and so, overtime the current direction will reverse.
Less likely is whoever created the map and dug the river channel, did not make the gradient of the riverbed in the downstream direction. Water obeys gravity and will travel downwards, so if the terrain level of the slope of the riverbed is deeper upstream than it is at the exit point downstream, then the water will eventually seek to find the lowest point and this can be observed overtime as a reverse in direction.

When creating maps, water flow and level balancing requires fine tuning, especially when more than one water source is used. It needs patience and allowing time for the waterflow to settle into it's natural flow before you can say you're done with the map creation.

You can continue to play on, knowing now the reason or you can correct the error with the waterflow using the map editor and restart your city on the new map.

[Lord-Vivec]

Originally posted by grapplehoeker:

Originally posted by Lord Vivec:

Now, all of a sudden, the river flow has reversed without me noticing it...
What can cause a river to change its flow from downstream to upstream so radically?

To answer that you have to ask the person who created your map, or open the map yourself in the map editor and look for the water sources.
There may be a water source downstream as well as one upstream. This is likely the cause. The intensity of the water source downstream is stronger than the one upstream and so, overtime the current direction will reverse.
Less likely is whoever created the map and dug the river channel, did not make the gradient of the riverbed in the downstream direction. Water obeys gravity and will travel downwards, so if the terrain level of the slope of the riverbed is deeper upstream than it is at the exit point downstream, then the water will eventually seek to find the lowest point and this can be observed overtime as a reverse in direction.

When creating maps, water flow and level balancing requires fine tuning, especially when more than one water source is used. It needs patience and allowing time for the waterflow to settle into it's natural flow before you can say you're done with the map creation.

You can continue to play on, knowing now the reason or you can correct the error with the waterflow using the map editor and restart your city on the new map.

Yes, you are right. I haphazardly created the river disregarding the elevation of the landscape and the depth of the gulley. I accidentally even put half of my map under the sea level which leaves most of it unusable. Thanks for your response!

[Lord Bludgeon]

Doesn't work. Big part of why I quit playing the game. Didn't matter how deep I dug the riverbed at the south end or how shallow the north end was, the flow reversed up and down the length of the river at random spots for no apparent reason (other than to poison my citizens).

Original map plot came from a USGS elevation map with a river that has been flowing north-to-south for MILLIONS OF YEARS.

Need to fix the editor, give us a simple "Source is here, drainage is there, flows THIS WAY" control for laying waterways that ONLY FLOW ONE DIRECTION! This shouldn't be this hard!

[BucketBrain]

Originally posted by Lord Bludgeon:

Doesn't work. Big part of why I quit playing the game. Didn't matter how deep I dug the riverbed at the south end or how shallow the north end was, the flow reversed up and down the length of the river for no apparent reason (other than to poison my citizens).

Original map plot came from a USGS elevation map with a river that has been flowing north-to-south for MILLIONS OF YEARS.

Need to fix the editor, give us a simple "Source is here, drainage is there, flows THIS WAY" control for laying waterways that ONLY FLOW ONE DIRECTION! This shouldn't be this hard!

This post is 6 years old and maybe they found their issue .
But to give a general hint , water moves downstream and the volume is given by sources at the highest points and water will level its hight on terrain . So for example the main source on top fills in 5000 u and your pumps steal 3000 u but the river needs more than 2000 u to keep the water level downstream on sealevel or higher , you create an upstream flow .
Have fun

[MessengerOfRage]

Originally posted by Lord Bludgeon:

Doesn't work. Big part of why I quit playing the game. Didn't matter how deep I dug the riverbed at the south end or how shallow the north end was, the flow reversed up and down the length of the river at random spots for no apparent reason (other than to poison my citizens).

Original map plot came from a USGS elevation map with a river that has been flowing north-to-south for MILLIONS OF YEARS.

Need to fix the editor, give us a simple "Source is here, drainage is there, flows THIS WAY" control for laying waterways that ONLY FLOW ONE DIRECTION! This shouldn't be this hard!

of course it has nothing to do with you sucking more water out of the river than it can replenish.
of course its all about the editor controlls.

maybe look into other ways to harvest fresh water so you don't suck that poor river dry.

pumps are not the only option.

[Ripp]

I believe Extra Landscaping Tools will give you what you need to adjust your source and sea level issues.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=502750307&searchtext=Extra+Landscaping

[MarkJohnson]

Awesome! release month necro! lol

[Lord Bludgeon]

Originally posted by Coookyman:

Originally posted by Lord Bludgeon:

Doesn't work. Big part of why I quit playing the game. Didn't matter how deep I dug the riverbed at the south end or how shallow the north end was, the flow reversed up and down the length of the river at random spots for no apparent reason (other than to poison my citizens).

Original map plot came from a USGS elevation map with a river that has been flowing north-to-south for MILLIONS OF YEARS.

Need to fix the editor, give us a simple "Source is here, drainage is there, flows THIS WAY" control for laying waterways that ONLY FLOW ONE DIRECTION! This shouldn't be this hard!

of course it has nothing to do with you sucking more water out of the river than it can replenish.
of course its all about the editor controlls.

maybe look into other ways to harvest fresh water so you don't suck that poor river dry.

pumps are not the only option.

I think it's really funny how some of you think you can actually suck enough water out of a river to change the current direction... at least in rivers the size I'm referring to. I'll look into the extra landscaping tools; thank you, Xeyeld.

[MessengerOfRage]

Originally posted by Lord Bludgeon:

Originally posted by Coookyman:

of course it has nothing to do with you sucking more water out of the river than it can replenish.
of course its all about the editor controlls.

maybe look into other ways to harvest fresh water so you don't suck that poor river dry.

pumps are not the only option.

I think it's really funny how some of you think you can actually suck enough water out of a river to change the current direction... at least in rivers the size I'm referring to. I'll look into the extra landscaping tools; thank you, Xeyeld.

lol, will you have a look at the mod or did you quit playing? you are contradicting yourself.

please tell us where the wonderplanet you are living on is located. I might move there once earth is broken.

flow reversal is occuring at every river that flows into an ocean every high tide. Ask London, an inland city that sees current reversal every day.

humans have sucked dry countless rivers. Ask the Aral Sea, a sea drying up because humans sucked dry all it's tributary rivers.

combine sucked dry rivers and tidal surges and you get the problem that you claim is impossible on your wonder planet.
cities around the world located where rivers meet the sea report seawatersurges further and further inland once their rivers water gets harvested upstreams.

here have an animation of the Aral Sea showing how it dries up over the last 54 years: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Aral_Sea.gif/220px-Aral_Sea.gif
and the wiki article explaing what happens:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea

also have a look here:
{LINK REMOVED}https://tinyurl.com/4yaednwx
a study that shows that intermittent rivers are by now the norm, around 60% of all rivers dry up at least once a year.
It's the norm and not impossible as you think.
quote: "Many formerly perennial rivers and streams have become intermittent in the past 50 years owing to water abstractions, climate change and land use transitions, including sections of iconic rivers such as the Nile, Indus, Yellow and Colorado."

on a side note: this is a players forum devs don't read here.
complaints about realism utered in this forum won't reach them, if you want change or just tell them what you think you need to go to their own forum.

in here you find players, people that adapted to the game mechanics and know how to have their fun with the game.
A more sensible and polite approach without shouting, immaginary impossibilities and claiming you have quit would have got you way more help than "have this mod", everyone that posted after your necropost is known to usually be very helpfull and very wordy.

edit: because steam removed my tinyurl link to the study here have the full link:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03565-5.epdf?sharing_token=LnpKs_GF2VfvAunh5yF9V9RgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0P33g7yE43G343p5Fclo1Iqu-fK0HVYbCxsx8R0Tpl7uX7fCWKqkxoniVReA6aeM1ww132xgqbk3efkkWaNjCZ3LM3BA_suN0QOA90km5X4fSDbBhYpWkhCoTCfW2TRZRAn1H6DbjjjDsNshahkU6OFIdk_rQw1XNhrffictpsRiVUFuxzdU3R54nk8ZO3f7zs%3D&tracking_referrer=www.derstandard.at

[WhiteKnight77]

Originally posted by Coookyman:

Originally posted by Lord Bludgeon:

I think it's really funny how some of you think you can actually suck enough water out of a river to change the current direction... at least in rivers the size I'm referring to. I'll look into the extra landscaping tools; thank you, Xeyeld.

lol, will you have a look at the mod or did you quit playing? you are contradicting yourself.

please tell us where the wonderplanet you are living on is located. I might move there once earth is broken.

flow reversal is occuring at every river that flows into an ocean every high tide. Ask London, an inland city that sees current reversal every day.

humans have sucked dry countless rivers. Ask the Aral Sea, a sea drying up because humans sucked dry all it's tributary rivers.

combine sucked dry rivers and tidal surges and you get the problem that you claim is impossible on your wonder planet.
cities around the world located where rivers meet the sea report seawatersurges further and further inland once their rivers water gets harvested upstreams.

here have an animation of the Aral Sea showing how it dries up over the last 54 years: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Aral_Sea.gif/220px-Aral_Sea.gif
and the wiki article explaing what happens:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea

also have a look here:
{LINK REMOVED}https://tinyurl.com/4yaednwx
a study that shows that intermittent rivers are by now the norm, around 60% of all rivers dry up at least once a year.
It's the norm and not impossible as you think.
quote: "Many formerly perennial rivers and streams have become intermittent in the past 50 years owing to water abstractions, climate change and land use transitions, including sections of iconic rivers such as the Nile, Indus, Yellow and Colorado."

on a side note: this is a players forum devs don't read here.
complaints about realism utered in this forum won't reach them, if you want change or just tell them what you think you need to go to their own forum.

in here you find players, people that adapted to the game mechanics and know how to have their fun with the game.
A more sensible and polite approach without shouting, immaginary impossibilities and claiming you have quit would have got you way more help than "have this mod", everyone that posted after your necropost is known to usually be very helpfull and very wordy.

edit: because steam removed my tinyurl link to the study here have the full link:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03565-5.epdf?sharing_token=LnpKs_GF2VfvAunh5yF9V9RgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0P33g7yE43G343p5Fclo1Iqu-fK0HVYbCxsx8R0Tpl7uX7fCWKqkxoniVReA6aeM1ww132xgqbk3efkkWaNjCZ3LM3BA_suN0QOA90km5X4fSDbBhYpWkhCoTCfW2TRZRAn1H6DbjjjDsNshahkU6OFIdk_rQw1XNhrffictpsRiVUFuxzdU3R54nk8ZO3f7zs%3D&tracking_referrer=www.derstandard.at

The Elizabeth River in the Hampton Roads area that is a great example of a tidal river. It starts in Va. Beach, meanders between Va. Beach and Norfolk, before separating Chesapeake and Norfolk and them being entirely in Norfolk. At low tide, one can see the river bottom where Interstate 64 (eastbound) crosses it (don't walk out there, you might get stuck in the mud). When the tide comes in, the flow is against the nominal flow.

[db48x]

More specifically, the game doesn't know or care how much flow there is in a real river in real life, it only cares about how much flow the map maker has given it by placing water sources. Each pump you add sucks in up to a certain amount of water, and each wastewater outlet you add is also a source of a specific size, usually much smaller than the source for a river.

Combine these together and it is very easy to reverse the course of a river accidentally. I played a map where the map maker deliberately put very narrow and shallow streams for stylistic reasons; a single pump was able to completely dry one of them up.

[WhiteKnight77]

Originally posted by db48x:

More specifically, the game doesn't know or care how much flow there is in a real river in real life, it only cares about how much flow the map maker has given it by placing water sources. Each pump you add sucks in up to a certain amount of water, and each wastewater outlet you add is also a source of a specific size, usually much smaller than the source for a river.

Combine these together and it is very easy to reverse the course of a river accidentally. I played a map where the map maker deliberately put very narrow and shallow streams for stylistic reasons; a single pump was able to completely dry one of them up.

Yeah, I am playing on a vanilla map and almost ran my water inlets dry. It has a bunch of small rivers/streams and I actually dried up part of it.

My solution was to deepen the area a bit and add a new water source to keep the water inlets supplied as well as restore the flow to the stream.