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I would not recommend a Mac for anyone that’s serious about gaming. The library and compatibility is far too low. Yes CSL runs via (I think) Rosetta 2, but there are plenty of other games that don’t or run poorly. This site has a list of how games perform but I can’t vouch for its accuracy and currency. You need to reach out and get solid info from a number of sources as you’re trying to do here, which is a good sign.
https://www.applegamingwiki.com/wiki/Home
Can I offer this perspective as a Mac user myself with the 16” Intel MacBook: We are a couple of years into the M-series transition and indeed it’s almost completed. We have not seen a mad rush by developers to adopt and target Apple’s new archicture and chips. In fact, it seems ro be largely business as usual as during the Intel period or perhaps even worse depending on how you view Rosetta 2. Even the most faithful Mac YouTubers argue this is far from a good gaming computer. See SnazzyLabs, MaxTech, etc. While there is a library of games available, many of the biggest “AAA” titles simply won’t run or will run very poorly. I’ve played Death Stranding and that is simply not possible to play on an M-series Mac currently, but there are plenty of others.
I’m sure you’re well aware of the argument that: for the cost of a Studio you can build a pretty good gaming PC. GPU prices have been coming down slowly from their crazy levels that made PC gaming a nightmare in recent years. I think that should continue despite the current situation in China. The upcoming 40-series from NVidia and AMD’s Zen4 both look promising. One of the problems of PCs is their high power use, so if you’re sensitive to electricity costs and the environment that is something to consider in favour of the Mac.
Of course, it’s likely that you want the Studio for many other reasons, are heavily invested in Mac software and its ecosystem, and only play or intend to play a few games of which CSL is one. That’s perfectly valid and sorry I can’t help with your specific question but thought my perspective might still be useful. CSL is the game I’ve spent the most time n according to Steam, but a good portion of that is idling.
I have no plans to upgrade my Mac laptop. If I was spending that kind of money I’d build a gaming PC over the Studio and it’s obligatory display that you need to compliment the look. I even went so far as to choose all the PC components I wanted with only the case being the last undecided part.
Another game I like to crack out from time to time is Tetris Effect: Connected. That actually runs pretty great on my Intel Mac via Boot Camp but is listed only as “Playable” via Parallels on the Apple chips.
I’m keen to know the answer as well and can share my current 100k mod-free city, though I suspect anyone with a Studio has or can download something similar or larger from the workshop. A 250 or 500k city would be good to test.
I will admit that I'm still pondering and not yet fully convinced that now is the right time to upgrade to Apple Silicon.
As you correctly guessed, I'm invested in the Apple Ecosystem and don't do a lot of gaming these days. But I'm hoping to be able to play a few favorite games like CSL, Civ VI (which I believe runs well on an M1 Max). I also play a few other strategy games which aren't too demanding on graphics or processors. CSL is the main exception.
Agree with you, SnazzyLabs, MaxTech, etc. that Macs just aren't great for games. A shame, given the power of these new chips. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But it's not a deal breaker. I don't play enough games to justify building a game rig or buying a console. Of course, I'd be happy if an M1 Mac were able to play more new AAA titles here and there (and it seems there are a few), but I don't expect it.
My main reason for upgrading the Mac Studio is for photo editing, graphics design, and general productivity. The Mac Studio is perhaps a bit overkill for these needs, but I also want to upgrade to the 5k Studio Monitor (not practical with my current rig), plus "future proofing" and it would be a shiny new toy :)
My current rig is a 6 year old Hackintosh that dual boots MacOS and Windows (rarely) - i7-4770k 3.49 GHz with a Radeon RX 580 8GB. Not a great game machine either, but it's passable for the titles above.
A Mac Studio would be a lot faster for most of my everyday needs, but it would still be disappointing if it couldn't handle my favorite games better than my current rig.
Thank you again for the link to the Apple Gaming Wiki. It says CSL is "perfect" under Rosetta 2, but (I think according to SnazzyLabs) those reports aren't entirely reliable. And it's unclear if the "perfect" report includes a giant city.
I've seen several videos of people playing CSL on MacBooks with M1 Max chips. But those were mostly unhelpful, because they were flying around medium sized cities while the game was paused.
So I was hoping somewhere here might have direct, firsthand experience.
P.S. I wish Apple would back a few dump trucks of cash to some AAA game developers and get them on board with producing Mac versions of major titles. But IANTC (I am Not Tim Cook).
M1 Mac performance:
25-35 FPS on "high quality" of 1080p
30-40 FPS on medium.*
30-40 FPS on low.*
The guy doing the demo said he was "disappointed" in the performance. Said it was "playable" but that it could be "so much better." The disappointment may be partially based on a previous comment that CSL had added support for Metal in a 2017 beta (which should have made it much faster on Macs), but later reverted back to OpenGL for unknown reasons.
* He didn't define what "medium" and "low" were, or how big the city was. The city looked between small and medium, but it's hard to tell from the short video.
Would still love to hear from anyone who has played it on an M1 MAX chip. It should be better than this, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
https://doesitarm.com/game/cities-skylines/benchmarks/
I’m glad Apple has made the Studio. I was asking for this ever since the G4 Cube days. But the loss of Boot Camp has made me reconsider sticking with Apple. If I upgraded my laptop I would definitely stick with the MacBook Pro, but for a desktop I would now go the PC route.
Yes I’ve often thought that Apple could spend the money to have AAA games ported. They can easily afford it and could even do so without disclosure if they worry about the optics of supporting certain games. I think, however, that Apple wants to discourage specifically high-end gaming where most of these big titles sit for reasons I’m not entirely sure or clear on.
I would say running macOS natively on a Studio will be a huge improvement from your Hackintosh. Did you own Macs previously or were you won over by macOS from trying it on your PC?
I used Macs back in the 1990s (I had a couple of Powerbooks), then moved over to Windows when Apple imploded following Jobs' departure.
Bought an iPhone when it first came out. Always toyed with getting a Mac, but I played more games then (I used to work for Pandemic Studios), so I continued to build PCs.
In ~2010 I bought a MacBook Air - needed something portable for notes. Pretty much wanted one from the moment I saw Jobs pull one out from a manilla envelope. Was very happy with it. The near instant wake vs. PC laptops at the time was huge; plus the aluminum case was durable and looked better in front of clients.
When building a new PC ~2016, I chose Hackintosh compatible parts. Thought it might be fun novelty to try dual booting. But before I knew it, I was spending most of my time in MacOS and began to dread booting into Windows.
Part of what won me over was the Magic Trackpad. IMO it's the most elegant computer user interface around. With a light brush of the finger(s), you can easily access windows and programs hidden behind other windows, switch between virtual desktops (doing away with the need for an extra monitor), hide all windows to reveal your desktop, instantly access all your apps, etc., scroll your windows, etc. So much easier and far more elegant than Windows.
And I loved how easily iCloud shared files between my iPhone, MacBook Air, and Hackintosh. Notes, calendar appointments, reminders, contacts, files, messages, photos, email, etc. etc. all seamlessly and updated across all of the devices.
Another selling point, which a "Genius" at the Apple Store showed me [it was a revelation at the time]: you could access your core iCloud data from a web page, from any computer, anywhere. That was a big plus for my work at the time. If you computer died, was lost, or malfunctioned, you could access the info anywhere. OR go buy a new Apple computer, log in, and that information would just propagate back like magic.
Also, I was sick of dealing with Windows. People love to say it's more versatile and customizable - and maybe it is? But I lost track of the number of times I had to do hours of internet research to learn how to change an obscure registry subkey in Reg Edit to do something simple like reverse the direction of my mouse's scroll wheel. Or get some plug and play device to work, kind of. Or how many times Windows crashed or gave me the Blue Screen of Death. And Windows System Restore almost never worked. (I know I rolled back the system once or twice, but can't recall of a single instance where it worked after my computer stopped rebooting).
Apologies for the lengthy rant! lol
Undoubtedly running Windows in emulation will have a performance hit, especially with high end games. I saw Linus (of Linus Tech Tips) running some 3D shooters on an M1 Max MacBook with decent FPS rates, but undoubtedly it varies by title.
FWIW here's a link of someone with a MacBook Pro with 32GB Ram running the following programs simultaneously, without noticeable slowdowns, while attached to an external monitor:
• Windows 11 emulation with a 24 GB partition • Final Cut Pro 4k with a video playing • Unreal Engine 5 (120fps) • Logic Pro • Chrome • iPad simulated • Android Studio • Xcode • while streaming it all live • and displayed on external monitor
Mostly just meant to illustrate how insanely fast and efficient the integrated memory is. But was surprised he could get a 24GB Windows virtual partition on a MacBook with only 32 GB of RAM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUMk3wljAuc
I hear you about troubleshooting Windows. When you say problems with Windows Restore, one of the best features of macOS in my opinion is Time Machine. A shame that Apple nixed their wireless storage and routers, but you can always go 3rd party.
I suppose it’s weird that someone might get more into gaming in middle-age than less, but I find that’s what has happened. I’ve always loved gaming so it’s probably not that unusual.
Oh and on the scale of things my best ever Mac was either the Mac Pro tower or G4 iMac (or they’re tied), and the worst (by far) was the G5 iMac (first edition).
Are you not willing to wait to see Apple’s next Mac Pro? Problem is, it’ll be even more expensive!
I'm just over 50 - pretty much grew up with video games, starting with Pong. Video games are a great form of entertainment. Some games are better than TV, IMO, because they engage your mind (problem solving) and exercise your reflexes and eye-hand coordination. Many have great writing and story telling, too.
Agree that Time Machine is very underrated. When people do price comparison of Mac and Windows machines, they often overlook the hidden costs of software of PCs, or the value and convenience of programs like Time Machine. Apples have a lot of great, free programs that cover most basic needs.
Re: waiting.
Actually, I've been waiting nearly 3 years for a 27" iMac. Nearly bought one in 2019, then at the end of 2020 they announced the transition to Apple Silicon, so I figured I'd wait for that. The 24" iMac was tempting, but assumed a more powerful 27" iMac was around the corner. Now some say it's been cancelled.
I'm tempted to wait until June to see what M2 Macs they're rolling out. It will probably just be MacBooks and the Mac Pro, which is too powerful and expensive for my needs.
There are rumors that a 27" iMac Pro (possibly with an M3 chip) could come out in 2023. Tempting. But I like that the Mac Studio separates the computer from the monitor, so they can be upgraded separately as needed. (The Mac Minis always seemed a bit underpowered).
I wonder if Apple will stick to their old habit of refreshing their computers (like the Mac Mini or Mac Studio) every 2 or 3 years, or if they'll accelerate their cycle now that they're in the driver's seat.
Hard to imagine that they'll be an M2 Max version of the Mac Studio out next year, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Which configuration are you eyeing?
I did a quick test on my MacBook Pro with a M1 Pro and 32 GB of memory using this workshop save:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1955102907
The city has about 187K population and I have most of the DLCs and a modest collection of workshop mods and assets. All graphics settings at max levels.
The LSM reported a load time of 48 seconds
Activity Monitor showed memory use of C:S at 19 GB
The Steam FPS counter varied from 17 to 36 FPS as I zoomed and panned around
The game was very responsive and smooth as I move the camera around, zoomed in and out, and used the first person camera to follow vehicles and citizens. From what I have seen reported you will not get any better FPS numbers for this game.
The simulation speed didn't change as I selected the three speed levels, which is typical for large cities. Since the game is single threaded the number of cores you have will not make any difference in simulation speed.
The difference in the M1 chips (Max, Pro, Ultra) is really just the number of cores (GPU and CPU) you can have and the amount of memory you can have. For Cities: Skylines the only important factor is the amount of memory you have for the game. For good results, I would suggest 32 GB is needed for the M1 since the memory is shared between the CPU and GPU cores.
That is actually a pretty good result for the M1 Pro. I think you just sold Dave on the Studio. Now if only they could deliver an M1 native build. Perhaps Unity was incapable or poorly Metal and Apple Silicon it at the time.
The M1 Max has a minimum of 32 GB of RAM I believe, but I might even lean towards 64 if I was buying it personally. Another factor worth considering is that the 4 TB storage option is a bit faster, though lower capacities are still plenty/very fast. I would absolutely recommend getting the higher graphics option for the M1 Max before higher RAM and storage and it is one of the cheaper upgrades.
I’d still build a PC personally, but Dave said he spends more time in macOS than Windows. For me it’s the opposite. I spend more time in Windows on my MacBook Pro. I think that’s unusual, but all games, including CSL, seem to run better in Windows on the same hardware. That has long been the case, though for lower-demand and indie games it doesn’t matter so much.
I agree with you and would add that there are lots of games that never get ported to MacOS.
I also mainly use MacOS, so I have often thought I should just use Parallels (or some other virtual machine) to run Windows and just put steam and all of my games inside the VM. I expect that I would actually see improved game play.
Wow! Thank you ever so much! That's exactly what I was looking for - and more! I wasn't clear on what resources CSL relied on most, so your explanation really helps clarify that. (It's a shame that CSL isn't making use of those extra cores; here's hoping the sequel will, if/when that comes out)
For comparison on my Intel i7 iMac. City population 190,000:
• Load time: 1:50, plus 23 seconds if you count the time to load the launcher
• Activity Monitor: 17 GB RAM (my computer only has 16 GB of physical memory)
At 1920x1080, with most graphics settings at high (except shadows):
• FPS: zoomed in: 13-17 FPS (mostly low to mid teens) when running.
• FPS: zoomed out: 15-25 FSP (but mostly high teens) when running.
• Mid 20s to 30 FPS when zoomed far out and paused.
It's playable. The controls are reasonably smooth, as are the follow cameras. When you scroll around from place to place, the low frame rate is evident (buildings and scenery go by a bit like flip card animation).
Thank you again for taking the time to investigate this so thoroughly and report it back! And I'm sure others will benefit from this as well. Cheers!
Yes, absolutely. This definitely sold me on the Mac Studio; it eliminates one of my last (modest, but not trivial) reservations. It's (surprisingly) reassuring to know that I'll still be able to play CSL on an M1 Mac. It also serves a bit as a familiar reference point.
As you say, 32GB of RAM is the minimum. Normally, it's a no-brainer to go for more RAM, but given how remarkably efficient the unified memory is, I'm leaning towards 32 GB.
64 GB RAM would add 4-6 weeks to the delivery time (from mid June to mid/late July) and add $400 in cost, which might be better directed towards the 32 core GPU and taking the storage to 2TB.
So the probable configuration would be:
• Apple M1 Max with 10-core CPU, 32-core GPU, 16-core Neural Engine
• 32GB unified memory
• 2TB SSD storage
Of course, I realize that adding extra storage is fairly easy. I'm going to have to add a NAS anyway, to accommodate my other existing drives. But I'm nearly maxed out on my current 1TB system SSD, and it would be nice to have room to grow on the main drive.
Hmmm. I'll probably sleep on it a few more days.