Pedestrian Paths or Bike Paths?

[Private_Scrub]

I know these are unsung heroes in the constant fight against traffic, but which one do you say is better overall?

[Metacritical]

define better

[Strategy Nerd]

I'd say the pedestrian and bike paths from the workshop are better, because they work as both.

[SilverAgeFan]

I play unmodded with all the DLC. I tend to look at traffic a lot, especially traffic paths. I’ve noticed that pedestrians will violate the bikes only rule if they really need to for short distances.

Regardless, I make networks of both bike paths and pedestrian paths throughout my cities. And not just for shortcuts. Cims prefer to walk or ride away from car traffic given the option.

[OneJasonBradly]

Originally posted by SilverAgeFan:

I’ve noticed that pedestrians will violate the bikes only rule if they really need to for short distances.

I have seen bikes riding on paths and pedestrians crossing bike paths but... Do you remember the conditions or if it was predictable?
Edit; I would like to see this for I use both and have had issues with pedestrians not being able to cross a bike path or better said jump the bike path. You know like citizens/Cims can jump/ walk from an asset one zone unit away and join a path?

[OneJasonBradly]

Originally posted by Metacritical:

define better

Good request.

Originally posted by SilverAgeFan:

Cims prefer to walk or ride away from car traffic given the option.

As a rule pedestrians will prefer a path over sidewalk, every time.

[ebrumby]

Originally posted by Strategy Nerd:

I'd say the pedestrian and bike paths from the workshop are better, because they work as both.

Totally agree!

[leftbehind]

The preference is based primarily on two things: Distance and speed.

Each network asset defines the maximum speed things using it can achieve (you can override those speeds with mods like Traffic Manager: President Edition).

Each pedestrian, bike, vehicle, etc., also has a maximum speed.

When a cim wants to get from A to B, a request is sent to the pathfinder stating source and target points, and also what modes of transport the cim can use.

Assuming a cim can use public transport, walking and cycling are part of the options the pathfinder will consider. This can also be affected by policies like "encourage biking" and "ban bikes on sidewalks". More info on policies: https://skylines.paradoxwikis.com/Policies

As a cims max walking speed is lower than the speed of a cycle, if the cim is a cyclist they will generally prefer bike paths over walk paths. But this depends on the entire route what they will do - if it turns out getting the bus is overall better, then that's what they will do. If there is a choice between walk path and bike path, they'll take bike path because they can travel along it faster, assuming it's not massively longer route than the walk path (remember: pathfinder is generally looking for quickest way from A to B).

[OneJasonBradly]

Originally posted by aubergine18:

But this depends on the entire route what they will do - if it turns out getting the bus is overall better, then that's what they will do. If there is a choice between walk path and bike path, they'll take bike path because they can travel along it faster, assuming it's not massively longer route than the walk path (remember: pathfinder is generally looking for quickest way from A to B).

It's not so cut and dry. In many of my community or neighbourhood path networks I use bike and pedestrian pathways beside each other. There is more to it than you are taking into account for they are both heavily used at the same time often coming from and going to the same destinations, which is a transit stop of some kind most times. I use no policies in my city either nor traffic mods or mods that change the mechanics or rules of the game.

[leftbehind]

Yes, there is a little more, such as small deterministic randomisation that the pathfinder introduces to add some variance, but macroscopically what I've said above holds. Note the fact I used words such as "generally".

BTW, if you want to see the _actual_ code of the vanilla pathfinder, here it is in is a project I'm involved with: https://github.com/krzychu124/Cities-Skylines-Traffic-Manager-President-Edition/blob/master/TLM/TLM/Custom/PathFinding/StockPathFind.cs

And the modified version used in TM:PE: https://github.com/krzychu124/Cities-Skylines-Traffic-Manager-President-Edition/blob/master/TLM/TLM/Custom/PathFinding/CustomPathFind2.cs

[Catratio]

What I started doing is making walking paths that connect from neighborhoods to main streets, and a bike path that goes parallel to that main street. I figure pedestrians can walk to buses (or bike to the bike path if they want), and dedicated bikers can have their long uninterrupted path that will bypass all the sidewalk traffic and stoplights on the street. It seems like ped paths are good for short to moderate distances and bike paths are for the long stretches because since bike speed is so much faster the AI doesn't mind it being longer since it can get there faster anyway. idk, it's kind of complicated, but when I put my bike path in a new area it was jam packed with bikers, until I added buses then yeah, they gravitated toward that, makes sense.

[OneJasonBradly]

Originally posted by aubergine18:

Yes, there is a little more, such as small deterministic randomisation that the pathfinder introduces to add some variance, but macroscopically what I've said above holds. Note the fact I used words such as "generally".

Nice word but, I mean this observable result regardless of code.
Doesn't mean much when this kind of stuff happens. Follow it to the end to the bus stop. Understand almost all of them came from the train station and are all going to work from that bus stop at the end of the clip.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1125748228

In this clip is shown the same Network but with a better view of the different path types and how they work as a whole. If your in a hurry Sterling arrives at the station at 8:14 or so
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1670338123
In this network bikes and pedestrians are coming and going to the same destinations. Meaning that bus stop at the end has pedestrian and bikers going back to the same train station too. Think of that when viewing these clips.

[leftbehind]

@Catratio: I also do that, it seems very popular with the cims :)

@OneJasonBradly: As I mentioned earlier, each cim has transport preferences (bike, taxi, etc).

So when you say that people are using both bike and path, in your parallel routes next to roads, that is why; some cims have higher preference to use bike, others walk, and so on.

In regards to pavement vs path, that's primarily a factor of the network prefab, which is essentially a collection of lanes; pathfinder sees everything as lanes, ultimately, but each lane has some info such as direction, what sort of traffic it supports, speed, and so on. If a pedestrian has choice between sidewalk and a dedicated ped path, the path will usually win over the sidewalk, because the pathfinder will see it as better route (speed, etc). However if the path turned out to be sufficiently longer route, the cim would end up back on the sidewalk (again, things like path randomisation would create some variance).

What I should have perhaps clarified above is the pathfinder also factors cost, in addition to speed. Even that is hard to explain though, because there is monetary cost (eg. public transport fees), "penalty" costs, and so on. A dedicated bike path has lower penalty cost and faster speed than a sidewalk. But even there some of those factors can depend on the network prefab.

The penalty cost is important to understand; for example if you ban bikes on sidewalks (district policy), what you're actually doing is telling the pathfinder to apply higher penalty cost for bikes on sidewalks. If there was no other route from A to B for a cyclist they'd still use the sidewalk despite the cost (it's not a ban).

Also, the pathfinder can be told what to prioritise - speed, money, penalty, etc. And it has some built in limits for number of segments, or distance or penalty, depending on what parameters you send in to it. That's why, for example, cims maximum walking distance is something like 128 zoning units. Or why a cim is more likely to ignore penalty costs on a short route with few alternatives than a long route with lots of alternatives.

[Rena]

Are there no vanilla paths that allow both bikes and pedestrians? I thought most of them did...

[Catratio]

Default paved path lets both types use it. I've seen them both on gravel paths too. Never bothered to look to see who Park Life paths get used by.

[OneJasonBradly]

Originally posted by aubergine18:

@Catratio: I also do that, it seems very popular with the cims :)

@OneJasonBradly: As I mentioned earlier, each cim has transport preferences (bike, taxi, etc).

So when you say that people are using both bike and path, in your parallel routes next to roads, that is why; some cims have higher preference to use bike, others walk, and so on.

In regards to pavement vs path, that's primarily a factor of the network prefab, which is essentially a collection of lanes; pathfinder sees everything as lanes, ultimately, but each lane has some info such as direction, what sort of traffic it supports, speed, and so on. If a pedestrian has choice between sidewalk and a dedicated ped path, the path will usually win over the sidewalk, because the pathfinder will see it as better route (speed, etc). However if the path turned out to be sufficiently longer route, the cim would end up back on the sidewalk (again, things like path randomisation would create some variance).

What I should have perhaps clarified above is the pathfinder also factors cost, in addition to speed. Even that is hard to explain though, because there is monetary cost (eg. public transport fees), "penalty" costs, and so on. A dedicated bike path has lower penalty cost and faster speed than a sidewalk. But even there some of those factors can depend on the network prefab.

The penalty cost is important to understand; for example if you ban bikes on sidewalks (district policy), what you're actually doing is telling the pathfinder to apply higher penalty cost for bikes on sidewalks. If there was no other route from A to B for a cyclist they'd still use the sidewalk despite the cost (it's not a ban).

Also, the pathfinder can be told what to prioritise - speed, money, penalty, etc. And it has some built in limits for number of segments, or distance or penalty, depending on what parameters you send in to it. That's why, for example, cims maximum walking distance is something like 128 zoning units. Or why a cim is more likely to ignore penalty costs on a short route with few alternatives than a long route with lots of alternatives.

That a lot of possible fact you keep blurting out there. You know what you know, I didn't really expect you to see the clips through for if you did...