My cims just really love trams and hate subways

[Pixoon Tube]

Hey everyone,
While I was playing Cities Skylines, I have encountered an issue that I can't fix.

So: I have a high-density residential district and a high-density commercial district within my city. Both are seperated in between by around 1-2 miles of free, uninhabitated land. This may sound weird, but I usually design my districts like that. Thus, my cities do not look like a giant metropolis but more like "islands" spread on the whole map. And YES, all 81 tiles.

Now, this has not been that much of a problem for me. I am a rather experienced CS player (over 1100 hours of playtime) so that is not the issue. Right now, I am having problems with my public transit system.

My first link between these two districts were three tram lines. They all run through the central main street of the shopping district and spread out to different areas of the residential area. These trams are loved by my people. Almost every tram in or out of the shopping centre is fully occupied and people are gathering in large crowds at the tram stops.

Basically, this means that there is simply so much demand for that one route that my trams can't handle it. Therefore, I build an additional subway line. It's not connected straight between the disctricts, but however, I think that it should do the job, as it connects both of them. But nobody uses it.

I have tried it a second time and built another subway line directly between those districts in a straight line. I even raised the speed limit to 140 kph (for your information, I use TM:PE and the Metro Overhaul Mod), so that it is definetly faster than the tram, which runs at speeds of 100 kph on it's own dedicated track. On the opening day of my new "express subway line", it was well used and I thought that I have finally found a soultion for the problem. But however, after only a few in game days, ridership has declined to almost zero. And guess what: My trams are still overcrowded and people are waiting en masse for the trams.

But still, I have a clue, why this might be the case: My tram lines are running directly through the main road of my shopping district and the main roads of my residential areas, while my subway stations are located in side streets. But are my cims really that lazy and prefer an overcrowded (slow) tram over a subway just for the sake of walking 50 meters less. Seriously?

Whenever I had an overloaded tram or bus line, I would have always built a backup subway line and it would have always helped to reduce the stress on the tram network. I always started with a low capacity tram network in my cities, and when my city and the demand for transportation grew, I would add highr tiers of transportation. This was my experience of past games. So, why doesn't it work right now?

Additionally, I have build a third residential area and linked them both with tram and subway lines. But this time, my subways are the direct link between the districts and my trams are runnig on more remote streets. And as you can imagine: My cims use the tram instead of the subway.

Furthermore, i am having a similar problems with busses. Whenever I build a new district, I will first connect it to the rest of my city with busses and upgrade later to a higher tier of transportation, like subways, railways or trams. And still: My cims like to squeeze themselves into overcrowded busses, which of course can't handle the demand as they are only for coverage of remote streets or a temporary solution until the district gets its better transit. And my new fancy subway system is not really used. However, these last two problems are less worse than the specific tram problem between the shopping and residential district that I mentioned earlier.

Do you have any ideas how I can effectively link my districts together so that my cims will not only use the tram? Or do you have an idea in general how to "force" people to use higher tiers of transportation? Thank you very much in advance.

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TLDR: I have an overcrowded tram line, so I build a parallel subway line to reduce the stress on the tram line, but nobody uses my subway line and my trams are still overcrowded.

[K2P2]

Only thing I can think of is ticket price. If two things can get me there, I will take the cheaper one.

[AoD_lexandro]

The AI is pretty thick, and will only ever use what is the "fastest" direct route to its destination. I would advise removing the tram system and using the metro in its place. This will free up some road access, improving traffic flow and get cims on to the metro system instead.

Also when making metro, do not loop them. The AI does not like loops, and tends to ignore the return lines. Make long single lines that connect at a central point.

[K2P2]

Originally posted by AoD_lexandro:

Also when making metro, do not loop them. The AI does not like loops, and tends to ignore the return lines. Make long single lines that connect at a central point.

This doesn't make sence. AI doesn't ignore return lines. You have to put them in. One clockwise line and one counterclockwise line. two lines on one loop. Works perfect.

[AoD_lexandro]

Originally posted by K2P2:

Originally posted by AoD_lexandro:

Also when making metro, do not loop them. The AI does not like loops, and tends to ignore the return lines. Make long single lines that connect at a central point.

This doesn't make sence. AI doesn't ignore return lines. You have to put them in. One clockwise line and one counterclockwise line. two lines on one loop. Works perfect.

It does make sense when you understand how the AI works. It will either turn left for the majority of its route or it will turn right for the majority of its route. This is because of how the directionality is programmed for left or right hand traffic.

Having loops means the AI wont want to take the opposite line as its not in the direction of travel. You can easily see it by passenger numbers alone. Two routes on the same loop, and one direction will always have nearly double the passenger numbers.

[K2P2]

AI is fine and I understand it well enough. Cims will take the fastest route to their destination. Of course CW and CCW numbers won't match perfectly. Usualy there something out there that people wanna go to. Numbers between a park and a train station will be higher than numbers from a low residential area to an industrial area. But the opposite line will take them right back. It's got absolutly nothing to do with left- or righthand traffic. It's just a matter of where people wanna travel to.

[AoD_lexandro]

My friend it's a known issue with the AI design and has been for years. LHD vs RHD changes AI behaviour in how it travels and how it selects the shortest route. It is well documented across many guides for the game, and is a major factor in managing traffic flow.

It happens all the time, particularly when you build mirror cities across a main route (which is what I do).

[K2P2]

Are we talking about the same thing here? Why would cims take the long way around a metro loop when they can just go the other way and be home sooner? I've built lots of metro systems this way and never had that problem.

[K2P2]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1866041624

Just one of my cities in progress. One loop has a difference in travellers due to the bottom half of the loop being in low res area. The other loop has almost identical travellers going both ways.

[AoD_lexandro]

Originally posted by K2P2:

Are we talking about the same thing here? Why would cims take the long way around a metro loop when they can just go the other way and be home sooner?

No I don't think we are;

That's not what I meant. They can forgo the route entirely, instead of taking the loop back when you have alternate routes that cross its path because of LHD/RHD logic. Like if you had the loop pass by a Cims workplace, but they then have to walk there, or take a bus. When they leave work to return home, the expected behaviour is a direct return trip.

But the cim's do not do that. They re-calculate the route based on its current location. So if the bus/metro return is further away from its destination due having to make a right turn they ignore it and drive instead (because the shortest route is now by car taking left turns).

I hope I made sense of that. I have sore face atm from dentistry so not exactly top of my game atm.

[TLHeart]

yes cims will always take the shortest route... and walk if that is the shortest route, even if public transport is available. If driving is a shorter route, then they will take that. Has nothing to do with right hand left hand logic.

Your assumption of a direct return along the same route is the flaw in your argument.


No I do not expect them to just do a return route... I do expect them to always recalculate their route from their current position, when planning a route. And if there is a shorter route back, that is due to the way I, as the mayor, have laid out the city, and the public transportation.

[AoD_lexandro]

This is not debate school, there is no "argument" to win here, and I did not make any assumption.

Many players expect the AI to use the fastest route too and from locations, when it in fact uses the shortest route that has the highest speeds from its current location. This I already know and was trying to explain to the OP ok?

Depending on which direction of travel you chose for traffic (LHD vs RHD) it will change the way the AI travels in the city. Templates and designs for LHD wont work on RHD because the LOGIC is the other way around and the lane directions switch. This means you have to plan your city properly or Cims will go around all over the place, trying to find the shortest routes, pulling cars out of their pockets and clogging the network.

[snowflitzer]

Look, the AI is funny, I have one express train with no stops between two major cities. However, all my sims are using the slower train, which stops at 4 stations in-between instead of using the fast train :)

[spielerinchen]

Originally posted by snowflitzer:

Look, the AI is funny, I have one express train with no stops between two major cities. However, all my sims are using the slower train, which stops at 4 stations in-between instead of using the fast train :)

what is funny about that ?
most of them apparently don't want to go from A to D but from A to B, from B to C & from C to D, some want to go from B to D & others from A to C
if you follow the train with many stops you will see the number of passengers dropping & rising again while the train stopped, you will see people at the station go into the train & out the station to other destinations
you can also follow one by one several passengers starting with station A, then you'll see most of them probably just don't have any inkling to drive fast to point D at all

maybe you just don't understand the AI of CS
it's not some pretend calculation of how many use public transport & just a mindless animation at the stations,
it's a real time simulation of people living their life, they have a home, they need work to pay their bills, they need shops, doctors, schools for their kids, that's why they need road & walking path connections between the buildings of their preference they visit
CS is a complex simulation, not just a pretend animation display

would it be even more complex then cims would walk even without roads & paths across the green to their destinations, The Sims 3 has that option btw, it's also a complex simulation

[dan0812]

Originally posted by AoD_lexandro:

This is not debate school, there is no "argument" to win here, and I did not make any assumption.

Many players expect the AI to use the fastest route too and from locations, when it in fact uses the shortest route that has the highest speeds

Do you have a screenshot of your metro setup? I am struggling to follow your explanation of how it's shorter

All cities I've seen online have the sort of loop I would expect to see but I do always find bus and metro routes are always more popular in one direction than the other.

[balcmusic]

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/784106995558956724/F61ACDE259A6AAB194B481390AD81BADBBC24F03/

I don't know if this is the same, but I have two train loops, the are exactly the same, just in opposite directions. People seem to take either direction about the same.

In addition, I built a gravel road to connect two cities. The gravel road was longer than the interstate connections, (it was scenic) to get to each other's city. The only difference was I made the speed limit unlimted. People abandoned the interstate which was shorter, and took the unlimited speed two lane gravel road. "shorter" time wise, probably. "Shorter" length wise, nope.