Do I need a page file with 64GB ram?

[Snowwie]

I would rather think that CS would dump more stuff into the page file (which by essence is much slower than RAM itself), even while the page file is running of an ssd. So what do you guys reckon? I have DDR4, 8 strips of 8GB, 1,066Mhz each (in dual channel 2,133Mhz), but in my configuration they run in Quad channel mode. Currently I had this thought about making the page file the same size as my ram, but then occurred to me that if CS is going to use the page file more, it will actually getting slower. Should I just lower it again? The game seldom uses over 25GB of ram actually.

[MarkJohnson]

Messaggio originale di Snowwie:

Pity there are not such things as PCI-E memory expansion sets. For example just a card that utilizes the full x16 speeds of a PCI-E 3.0 x16 lane on which you can add one dozens of memory modules.

This is already done with nvme x4 SSDs. RAM does the same thing, it is just x64 lanes. Video cards do it as well, but range from x64 to x512 lanes.

[CyberVibes]

Another factor would be the ability of the processor to handle any extra memory so pcie memory cards wouldn't work in that respect

[MonkehMaster]

Messaggio originale di aubergine18:

I see Monkeh is still spouting gibberish regarding the page file. Time to shred his gibberish.

The version of Unity that C:SL is designed to use page file. It will push as much unused stuff to page file as possible.

It does that to reduce amount of actively managed stuff in RAM. That means smaller data sizes and collections. And there's algorithmic optimisations that can be made as a result = performance gains.

If you want to see some widely documented examples, do some reading about sorting algorithms. On smaller data sets, different algorithms can be used which are much faster.

Even mods take advantage of this, for example TM:PE has a "tiny dictionary"[github.com] because we know a dataset will be small so we can kick in extra optimisations. That tiny dictionary is faster than the native C# `Dictionary<>` because of optimisations that can only be used on smaller data sets.

If you remove page file, or it's not big enough, you force the game engine to use slower algorithms.

In terms of automatic vs. manual management of page file: Unity is written in C++ and there's a specific crash bug with automatic page file management[support.microsoft.com] (latency issue). I've already shared that link with Monkeh but he decided to completely ignore it. This is the reason why so many people reporting crash bugs when loading a save fix their game just by switching to manual sized page file. Monkeh chooses to ignore that, too.

In terms of size, the biggest save I've seen was from Leader of the Monkeys (Paradox Interactive) - she was having problem with TM:PE which impacted one of her livestreams on the official youtube/twitch channels. We required 32GB RAM and 64GB page file to load that save (there was about 50GB of unused stuff pushed in to save file, and about 28GB active stuff in RAM). A computer with 64GB RAM would still be pushing 50GB of unused stuff to page file. (LotM has 128 GB RAM btw!)

point me to this video?

also show me where she had 128GB of RAM when her specs on her twitch show only 32GB of RAM?

[leftbehind]

Which video? The one with LotM running in to issue with TM:PE? Here (issue starts around 56:50) it was due to this issue[github.com].

As for the RAM, just checked the log file sent with that issue (via Discord) and it was 64GB

OS: Windows 10 (10.0.0) 64bit
Language: English
CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-7700K CPU @ 4.20GHz (8 core(s))
System Memory: 65460
Gfx Device: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070
Gfx Version: Direct3D 11.0 [level 11.1]
Gfx Memory: 7995
Gfx Shader Model: 50
Game Version: 1.12.1-f2-steam-win

So my mistake about 128 GB above.

Now that we've got those distractions out of the way, let's return to the facts about lower amount of stuff in RAM allowing higher performance algorithms to be used, shall we? Or do you want to bring up some more distractions Monkeh?

[CyberVibes]

Just to add if you have 32GB of ram and lots of assets like i have (6000 i don't recommend others to have this much, as it takes real careful management) and your having issues with crashing then set pagefile to 96GB if you have enough free space.

This post isn't mean't to encourage people to use more assets but rather to point out to detailers that if their game is crashing this solution works perfectly as long as it isn't a mod or something else crashing your game.

[Huyen]

The more memory and pagefile ram you got, the more CS uses. Doesnt make a difference.

[MonkehMaster]

Messaggio originale di aubergine18:

snip..

so let me see, you claim paging file is needed, then bring in an issue with a streamer that may or may not have to do with the issue.

https://www.twitch.tv/leaderofthemonkeys shows her specs (she may or may not have updated that she has 64GB or simply didnt have the option to show it).

she runs 2 1070's in sli which is known to cause issues with games (compatibility or performance, depending on game), also shows she has 1 500GB ssd, and alot of other extras pc stuff, she also seems to stream to youtube and twitch (could be both at the same time which i seen done on on one of her youtube vids), her frame rates are low as it is and may be due to high pop cities?

edit: her specs arent updated completely, she does run 64GB and may/may not have more than 1 ssd.

we also dont know what other stuff is running in the background, if she uses antivirus on that pc, or how well she maintains it, or if she does/doesnt have any tweaks/optimizations done to increase performance on her pc.

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i personally dont use antivirus on my gaming pc as it doesnt go anywhere online aside from steam or battlenet, and the drivers are updated through nvidia (geoforce experience with everything disabled) and advanced systemcare which updates all other drivers for the pc, i heavily maintain my pc, ie cleaning (dust (which is double filtered from my modifications), useless/unused files), disabling anything not needed or unwanted (OS bloat related and data related by microsoft), keep temps very cool (cpu and gpu never go past 45c), i wont go farther in detail but i have a huge list of stuff i do to keep the pc and OS running like new and as fast as possible, i also run the games separate from the OS.

i also run this pc (along with the monitors/tv's and laptop) on a separate dual outlet line from the house (straight from the box) and the power cleaned and maintained/surge protection with battery backups.

i did have a problem when i first built the pc and didnt have it on a dedicated outlet or battery backup with surge protection, had the cpu and 1 ram stick fried from a surge, got the cpu replaced under warranty but didnt bother with the single ram stick as they arent very expensive, also i guess asus thinks having the VRM anti-surge protection off by default is a good thing... i beg to differ and cant understand their thinking.

im sure you seen it but, reference of my main specs...

ASUS ROG STRIX theme with rgb lighting (Gaming PC)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAIN SPECS:
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OS:

win 7 pro 64bit

CPU:

i7 6850k 6 core @4.0ghz (no overclock)

GPU:

asus rog strix 1080 8GB ddr5x vram (no overclock)

RAM:

64GB ram g-skill trident z ddr4 3000mhz (8x8) (no overclock)

SSD/HDD:

1TB samsung 960 pro nvme m.2 ssd (OS)

1TB samsung 850 pro 2.5 ssd (games)

western digital 4TB gold (storage)

--------------------------------------------------

this laptop is just for downloading, web surfing and watching streams /movies and run streamlabs bot/night bot and other things for my streams (notifications and my dashboard for twitch).

inspiron 15r se (7520)

--------------------------------------------------
MAIN SPECS:
--------------------------------------------------

OS:

win 7 home premium 64bit

CPU:

i7-3612QM (quadcore) @2.1ghz (3.1ghz with intel turbo boost)

GPU:

intel hd 4000 / amd radeon 7730m 2GB vram

RAM:

16GB

SDD/HDD:

250GB msata ssd (OS)

750GB hdd (storage)

side note: this laptop is currently down with a short on the mobo, but im going to find and fix the short (bad capacitor or mosfet).

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now on with the TM:PE issue, this shows bad coding in either that mod (could be) or the game it self (still just as possible), i see the need for lots of ram in a game with simulations and/or tons of assets/ect.. (not only in city skylines, but also in rust and pubg they both use unity btw), which seems to cause issue with pc performance.

im going to assume that unity needs some serious work aswell, as this issue crops up in all 3 of the games i mentioned (may happen in other games aswell with unity).

but in pubg the issue is fixed by disabling or simply moving the page file to a faster drive.

in rust the amount of RAM goes up quite a bit going from low pop servers to higher pop servers, but can be managed decently with plugins that slowly start de-spawning peoples bases and loot at about the 7 day mark of inactivity (on no decay servers), on decay servers they have to maintain resources, but with high pop it they tend too be on more often and stuff just builds up, causing performance issues.

i would also like to mention, unity also uses a garbage collection function that seems to cause issues with performance, most notably seen in rust where fps drops and you see freezing of 1-2 seconds (low pop maintained by plugins and admins/mods) or longer (on high pop with decay, but people are on everyday).

havent done testing on pubg but that game seems to crawl when more people are grouped up, but most notably on lowend pc's or decent pc's with 16GB all leading to low ram, not so noticeable/or not at all noticeable on highend pc's with large amounts of ram.

cities skylines i havent seen issue yet/at all so far, dont know if it uses garbage collection, but clearly mods just cause way to much memory use, now if thats coding on mods end, the games end, or simply unity in general, but one of those may or may not be the leading cause and i dont think the issue quite crops up (on highend, high RAM pc's) on vanilla with no mods or assets.

on to paging file, many people have completely disabled paging files and have not seen any issues (aside from the issue with no crash dump, if it ever happens), even while playing games like city skylines and while it may help (being enabled) in severe cases such as way to many assets used/or not and mods, that doesnt mean bandaid fixes like setting paging files is needed instead of simply adding more RAM, btw RAM is faster than paging files used on an ssd, even more so on hdd.

fyi, windows manages a paging file of 128GB by default on a pc with 64GB RAM, which like i said before means you dont need to manually set it (which goes for all RAM configs as windows will set it to 2x the amount of RAM).

now, is all this a "i need huge paging files" thing because this is normal or simply archaic fixes meant for issues with hardware limitations back in winxp days, or being cheap when you can buy more ram (which btw is quite cheap now), also depending on your build, you can run way past 128GB RAM (but thats getting into server territory, which "can" still be used for gaming).

that all being said, i dont see severe issues like this in any of these games (or any game for that matter (ignoring new games with little to no optimization), aside from a tiny fps drop here and there, probably because my pc can handle it.

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TDLR: paging file is not needed (can be used), buying more ram is always recommended and the underlying issues with the game engine code, game code or the mod(s) coding is the issue (in this game mainly and could be in other games), all comes down to coding, if they clean up muted/unused coding, optimize their coding to be faster and their coding properly utilizes memory so it frees up memory and/or doesnt cause leaks.

who is shredded now

[MonkehMaster]

just as an fyi, i asked her (leader of the monkeys) as she is streaming atm on the paradox twitch and youtube playing cities skylines, she also recommended more ram over huge paging files, but did say they are useful on low ram systems in general.

[MarkJohnson]

Messaggio originale di MonkehMaster:

just as an fyi, i asked her (leader of the monkeys) as she is streaming atm on the paradox twitch and youtube playing cities skylines, she also recommended more ram over huge paging files, but did say they are useful on low ram systems in general.

There is absolutely no need to upgrade RAM for this game. I've helped a great many users on their cities and none had more than a few hundred assets in the city, even though some may be subscribed to over 4,000 assets.

More RAM than 16 GB for this game is wasted and will go unused, except for someone that wants each and every building in the game to be unique.

[snowflitzer]

Messaggio originale di MonkehMaster:

no you dont need a paging file, 64GB is more than enough for this game.

i run this game with 64GB and it never touches the paging file.

It looks like you have no clue about hardware and software. There is nothing wrong with re-installing windows every 6 months.

That shows actually intelligence. Trust me you want to do this. Windows 10 has a little bit improved that process but it is still highly recommended.

You don't have to believe us but maybe do some research first next time.

[CyberVibes]

@aubergine18 Note how he completely ignored your statement about Unity and how he looked for a weakness is the rest of your message, he's not gonna back down as in his mind he can't be proven wrong despite all the proof we have presented. I've restricted his feed by skipping by everything he has to say now :)

[MonkehMaster]

lol love how people ignore facts because they are addicted to bandaid fixes, its quite sad how you people wont bother learning anything.

also love how most of you people completely ignore that said paging file is just RAM on a drives storage, which is slow compared to actual RAM and the solution too the issue is more RAM, also ignoring the fact that running highly used paging files because you cant be bothered to buy more RAM can wear down an ssd really fast

lets not also forget that even a paradox employee (leader of the monkeys) also suggested more ram over a huge paging file for the exact reasons i explained many times over.

Messaggio originale di snowflitzer:

Messaggio originale di MonkehMaster:

no you dont need a paging file, 64GB is more than enough for this game.

i run this game with 64GB and it never touches the paging file.

It looks like you have no clue about hardware and software. There is nothing wrong with re-installing windows every 6 months.

That shows actually intelligence. Trust me you want to do this. Windows 10 has a little bit improved that process but it is still highly recommended.

You don't have to believe us but maybe do some research first next time.

i have 30yrs of clues about hardware and software, dont know what you brought up reinstalling windows for, was that at me talking about maintaining it and your pc? if so then i guess you meant to say "there is nothing wrong with being lazy and letting your pc go downhill for 6 months then reinstalling windows", btw.. yes reinstalling is one word.

what shows intelligence? manually setting a paging file? sorry but not really when anyone can google how to with no clue about what it does and just knowing it will bandaid their issue.

believe you about what? knowing that you can bandaid fix your issue with this game by manually setting a paging file, instead of buying more RAM?

i dont need to do research, ive know what a paging file does or is used for since that function made its way into an OS, maybe you need to do some research next time.

Messaggio originale di MarkJohnson:

Messaggio originale di MonkehMaster:

just as an fyi, i asked her (leader of the monkeys) as she is streaming atm on the paradox twitch and youtube playing cities skylines, she also recommended more ram over huge paging files, but did say they are useful on low ram systems in general.

There is absolutely no need to upgrade RAM for this game. I've helped a great many users on their cities and none had more than a few hundred assets in the city, even though some may be subscribed to over 4,000 assets.

More RAM than 16 GB for this game is wasted and will go unused, except for someone that wants each and every building in the game to be unique.

more ram will go wasted on this game and unused? yet your setting a paging file which is basically more RAM on your drive that clearly gets used, that makes alot of sense.... LOL

im guessing you dont know anything about the subject..

Messaggio originale di CyberVibes:

@aubergine18 Note how he completely ignored your statement about Unity and how he looked for a weakness is the rest of your message, he's not gonna back down as in his mind he can't be proven wrong despite all the proof we have presented. I've restricted his feed by skipping by everything he has to say now :)

you can be stubborn and set in your bandaid fixing ways, blocking me wont change the facts

[MarkJohnson]

Messaggio originale di MonkehMaster:

more ram will go wasted on this game and unused? yet your setting a paging file which is basically more RAM on your drive that clearly gets used, that makes alot of sense.... LOL

im guessing you dont know anything about the subject..

A page file is not RAM by any means, it is completely different. A page file is memory reserved in a special format to be loaded in RAM from your hard drive and in a format it can understand easier to be loaded in more quickly.

It is basically just putting it back on the hard drive and loading it in again. I.e. it is useless and there is no reason to load it in. If your city is only using a few hundred assets and you load in several thousand, then the assets just sit there as if they were just disabled and left on the drive in the first place.

Now it is taking up room on the hard drive twice. Once for workshop and again for page file. i.e. it isn't being used at all and wasting memory and giving you the illusion that you need more RAM. But you don't.

It's all about managing your system, not throwing money at it to fix an imaginary problem of not enough RAM. The page file will pick up any slack if you're low on RAM

Your confusion seems to be that you aren't able to distinguish the difference between RAM and memory.

[MonkehMaster]

Messaggio originale di MarkJohnson:

Messaggio originale di MonkehMaster:

more ram will go wasted on this game and unused? yet your setting a paging file which is basically more RAM on your drive that clearly gets used, that makes alot of sense.... LOL

im guessing you dont know anything about the subject..

A page file is not RAM by any means, it is completely different. A page file is memory reserved in a special format to be loaded in RAM from your hard drive and in a format it can understand easier to be loaded in more quickly.

It is basically just putting it back on the hard drive and loading it in again. I.e. it is useless and there is no reason to load it in. If your city is only using a few hundred assets and you load in several thousand, then the assets just sit there as if they were just disabled and left on the drive in the first place.

Now it is taking up room on the hard drive twice. Once for workshop and again for page file. i.e. it isn't being used at all and wasting memory and giving you the illusion that you need more RAM. But you don't.

It's all about managing your system, not throwing money at it to fix an imaginary problem of not enough RAM. The page file will pick up any slack if you're low on RAM

Your confusion seems to be that you aren't able to distinguish the difference between RAM and memory.

WRONG.....

paging file is Ram on a drive, ie... virtual memory to be used when you dont have enough RAM.

no special format needed LOL, also it doesnt load in "more quickly", its slower than keeping it on RAM itself, because RAM is faster.

so you admit its useless, yet try to argue...

your not making any sense here...

the whole reason for a page file is not enough RAM.

managing your system? imaginary problem? illusions?

again your not making any sense...

you clearly said ''not having enough RAM is an imaginary problem", then proceed to say "the paging file picks up slack if you are low on RAM"

fyi, its not taking up space on the drive twice, it resides on the paging file until it is needed.

these comments are priceless

you may need to learn a bit about pc's and take a course on comprehension to understand what your learning, then you can comment on this kind of stuff.

[snowflitzer]

Oh, well. You can have your beliefs too It always depends who is right lol
good look in your work and gaming.