does the mass transit addon fix the AI pathfinding?

[NoobOrFeed]

first of all i am looking very forward to the mass transit DLC. a lot of nice changes, even though most of the things are copied from the traffic manager president edition.
but are there any changes for the AI pathfinding? cause i want to uninstall the traffic manager mod after the patch for a fps boost, but the pathfinding problem is crucial to me.
so do i still need Traffic manager to solve those issues after mass transit?

[NoobOrFeed]

引用自 Wince：

the traffic manager president edition use one building full of server pers calculation software, and kind of traffic ^^

also it only produce log most of the time, and without that most of a gui ... then you need to understand reading thoose log is sort of a pain in the ...

what did you expect ^^ with one single computer simulating all the aspect at the same time ?^^

not sure what you mean? currently i have to use the lane changing tool from the mod and set up every intersection. just wanted to know if they fixed the traffic AI. without mod they stick on the 3rd lane of a 3 way road....

[Pops]

@OP. Please understand, there is no traffic AI in CS. Each agent, being car, truck pedestrian etc gets 1 command at point of departure. That means when it's spawned. That command is "go from A to B the fastest way". Which means when it spawns a route is selected, highways, roads, road lanes, or pathways, whatever is the quickest way. So that agent won't change lane as a human does. Once you get hold of this 1 single fact and design your road system pathways etc, all traffic problems will disappeaar.

The new mass transit dlc won't change this command so if you are having traffic problems now then you will continue to have traffic problems if you don't changeyour road systems. The best advice to get you thinking is simply this;
All industrial areas MUST have close direct access to a highway. The sooner the trucks and vans get onto the highway the better. Don't join residential to industrial areas with roads except by the highway, rather to join them with a pathway so cims can walk. If the res and ind areas are large join them with a pathway have 2 separate bus lines 1 for each area. You will surprised how many cims will catch a bus to the pathway and a bus to continue their journey to work and return.

The object is to make the bus trip faster than travelling to and from work. As long as the trucks can get straight on and off a highway they will travel in and out of city without causing hold ups.

The next thing is to separate your shops like this. Highway - shops, (for quick access of vans) then to residential. Doing this will also get your shops full of goods etc because of the direct access to the highway. I know it's not realistic but it works in this simulation. Always have plenty of pathways so cims can walk to shops. I prefer pathways over bikeways for residents etc, pedestrians will not use a bikeway but cyclists will use pathways. I use bikeways in long distances or in desined parks etc.

[MarkJohnson]

The devs have said countless times that there will be no alterations to the traffic AI. It functions properly and is part of the gaming part of the game. They want you figure that part out on your own.

And yes, there is a traffic AI to the game. It is very basic, but it is very self aware and does all of the basics; knowing of cars in from and behind them so they don't crash, stop at stop signs and stop lights, turn at appropriate points, merge, speed up slowly and slow down slowly so they don't abruptly stop and the car behind them crash into them They will even change their path if you bulldoze roads on them or even add a new road, they will use it.

But it does have a specific path it adheres to and it is shared with others as well. That is why they change lanes at the same spot. You just need to alter your roads so they change at a different spot. or better yet, do the obvious and eliminate the traffic! That's the real traffic goal of the game. Eliminate traffic, not manage it.

[Alpine Womble]

I always find it incredulous when someone complains about the AI and says its rubbish, its not the real world.

How do you get from, say Home to Work.

You either go the way you know, which you calculated some time ago and therefore is done before you leave. Only when there is a problem do make on 'the fly changes'.

Or its your first day and blindly find your way there, because you have an idea of where it is.

The AI of this game uses the first method, but crucially ALL vehicles use the same FASTEST ROUTE (based on road speeds) not their 'preferred route' , as with you and your neighbour, who may have your own preferred 'fastest route', whether it actually is or not.

THUS

If all your cims live in the same area A and are going to the same area B and you have 10 roads going from A to B. They Will all take the fastest single route. They do not make on the fly decisions if the traffic backs up.

Therefore,

You need to provide a range of transport options and arrange your roads at 'micro' level to feed into your 'macro' level transport system. That said if you network is badly thought-out/ layout out, you will always have problems.

As mj said eliminate the traffic where possible. Hence MASS TRANSIT,

=======

Also what I really liked about the rush-hour mod, it tried to simulate more real-world cim movement than in the vanilla game.


ends...

[Moro]

引用自 Pops：

@OP. Please understand, there is no traffic AI in CS. Each agent, being car, truck pedestrian etc gets 1 command at point of departure. That means when it's spawned. That command is "go from A to B the fastest way". Which means when it spawns a route is selected, highways, roads, road lanes, or pathways, whatever is the quickest way. So that agent won't change lane as a human does. Once you get hold of this 1 single fact and design your road system pathways etc, all traffic problems will disappeaar.

The new mass transit dlc won't change this command so if you are having traffic problems now then you will continue to have traffic problems if you don't changeyour road systems. The best advice to get you thinking is simply this;
All industrial areas MUST have close direct access to a highway. The sooner the trucks and vans get onto the highway the better. Don't join residential to industrial areas with roads except by the highway, rather to join them with a pathway so cims can walk. If the res and ind areas are large join them with a pathway have 2 separate bus lines 1 for each area. You will surprised how many cims will catch a bus to the pathway and a bus to continue their journey to work and return.

The object is to make the bus trip faster than travelling to and from work. As long as the trucks can get straight on and off a highway they will travel in and out of city without causing hold ups.

The next thing is to separate your shops like this. Highway - shops, (for quick access of vans) then to residential. Doing this will also get your shops full of goods etc because of the direct access to the highway. I know it's not realistic but it works in this simulation. Always have plenty of pathways so cims can walk to shops. I prefer pathways over bikeways for residents etc, pedestrians will not use a bikeway but cyclists will use pathways. I use bikeways in long distances or in desined parks etc.

what i want to see is some good video tutorials. serious about this, but people can talk til they are blue in the face and sometimes things just dont click until you just show examples of it being applied. plus i really want to see these ideal road networks while maintaining beautiful not grid cities.

[Alpine Womble]

That is the hardest thing I find. Beautiful non grid .....anyone can build a centuriation city.

[NoobOrFeed]

引用自 Tenfootpowder：

I always find it incredulous when someone complains about the AI and says its rubbish, its not the real world.

How do you get from, say Home to Work.

You either go the way you know, which you calculated some time ago and therefore is done before you leave. Only when there is a problem do make on 'the fly changes'.

Or its your first day and blindly find your way there, because you have an idea of where it is.

The AI of this game uses the first method, but crucially ALL vehicles use the same FASTEST ROUTE (based on road speeds) not their 'preferred route' , as with you and your neighbour, who may have your own preferred 'fastest route', whether it actually is or not.

THUS

If all your cims live in the same area A and are going to the same area B and you have 10 roads going from A to B. They Will all take the fastest single route. They do not make on the fly decisions if the traffic backs up.

Therefore,

You need to provide a range of transport options and arrange your roads at 'micro' level to feed into your 'macro' level transport system. That said if you network is badly thought-out/ layout out, you will always have problems.

As mj said eliminate the traffic where possible. Hence MASS TRANSIT,

=======

Also what I really liked about the rush-hour mod, it tried to simulate more real-world cim movement than in the vanilla game.


ends...

still doesnt make sense what you are talking about. i have city A and everything like industrial and commercial close to it. the moment i start building city B, like on the other side of the map, again with industrial and commercial areas around it, citizens from A start to go shopping and working to the buildings from city B and people from B go to A for their work and daily shopping.

This is just crappy AI and has nothing to do with a simulation.

[Alger P]

1) CS without the additional configurations of Metro stations (stations where different lines conjoin but don't share tracks, and stations angled and perpendicular to roads) basically sucks any enjoyment out of installing metros at all, and is as unrealistic as if you could only build streets without curves or angled junctions. They shouldn't release Mass Transit without including these modders' stations, and I can't imagine it would be all that difficult to simply incorporate already-proven-successful assets.

2) Current CS has limits of about 16,000 active vehicles and 65,000 in-motion citizens, so the game basically ceases to scale in a rational way beyond a certain population (I noticed mobility behavior getting unreliable at about 500,000). Everyone is saying that the "traffic AI" (if that's what these "agent limits" are considered) is not being improved with Mass Transit. If that's true, then it's not enhancing the fundamental playability of the game, just adding assets - which modders have been doing all along. And the traffic-management enhancements on streets isn't even necessary if you have decent mass transit options taking people out of their cars.

[MarkJohnson]

引用自 Alger P：

2) Current CS has limits of about 16,000 active vehicles and 65,000 in-motion citizens, so the game basically ceases to scale in a rational way beyond a certain population (I noticed mobility behavior getting unreliable at about 500,000).

First, the game doesn't scale rationally from the start. This is a game, so certain sacrifices are made to make it challenging.

Second, in order to 500k, then you had to install a mod to go past the 9-tile limit of the game. The AI is only built to handle 9-tiles, and that is it. going past this limit will give you new issues to work around.

Third, you forgot to mention these "mobility behavior getting unreliable" issues you are having. Most are easy to work around and plan for.

Everyone is saying that the "traffic AI" (if that's what these "agent limits" are considered) is not being improved with Mass Transit. If that's true, then it's not enhancing the fundamental playability of the game, just adding assets - which modders have been doing all along. And the traffic-management enhancements on streets isn't even necessary if you have decent mass transit options taking people out of their cars.

For the most part the traffic AI won't be changed, however I seen a video of the emergency vehicles being ble to pass other vehicles. But that seemed to be the limit.

But the AI doesn't need changing. It is very predictable and easy to manage. Plus that is the gaming part of the game. Without it, it would just be a photoshop program. So if you want playability, then you wouldn't want to lter the traffic behavior.

Lastly) The goal of this game is less about managing traffic and more bout eliminating the traffic. i.e. reducing the agents so you don't hit any limits. To me the mass-transit is more about avoiding mods that break with each game patch, than just adding DLC for playability or something to sell.

Since he game works fine with the roads and mass-transit in vanilla, I consider it ls just for cosmetics. I mean most major cities have larger than 3-lane highways for example.

[Moro]

引用自 rmjohnson144：

Everyone is saying that the "traffic AI" (if that's what these "agent limits" are considered) is not being improved with Mass Transit. If that's true, then it's not enhancing the fundamental playability of the game, just adding assets - which modders have been doing all along. And the traffic-management enhancements on streets isn't even necessary if you have decent mass transit options taking people out of their cars.

For the most part the traffic AI won't be changed, however I seen a video of the emergency vehicles being ble to pass other vehicles. But that seemed to be the limit.

But the AI doesn't need changing. It is very predictable and easy to manage. Plus that is the gaming part of the game. Without it, it would just be a photoshop program. So if you want playability, then you wouldn't want to lter the traffic behavior.

Lastly) The goal of this game is less about managing traffic and more bout eliminating the traffic. i.e. reducing the agents so you don't hit any limits. To me the mass-transit is more about avoiding mods that break with each game patch, than just adding DLC for playability or something to sell.

Since he game works fine with the roads and mass-transit in vanilla, I consider it ls just for cosmetics. I mean most major cities have larger than 3-lane highways for example.

i disagree. the AI does need changing. as 'predictable' as it may be (taking the shortest route) it is still a huge problem for the simple reason it is so simple.

i just tried building another city after reading up on some road network guides to try and solve the problems that i have always had. which at first it all seemed fine as always. around 20k traffic started getting annoying, but it wasnt horrible. it was easily fixed with a few changes here or there and one or two major upgrades to add really big road sections along the side of the city. then i hit a wall though where it always pops up. around the 50k and higher mark gigantic traffic jams appear in the city. which i tried to solve it and managed to "shorten" the traffic jam somewhat. the vehicles got through quicker with upgraded roads and connections made in other sections that probably decreased the number of vehicles coming in somewhat. however, the fact is that it was unfixable without major demolition work to the heart of the city really.

which its definitely caused by the bad AI. if the AI was more than just take the shortest route then things like that wouldnt constantly happen. the AI could re-evaluate traffic and see that the "shortest" route includes a high wait time and detour before it even gets there. in real life people do this all the time when the look at online maps or GPS. they also do this on the fly when they approach intersections and look at the window to see "omg that line will take me forever..." and then turn down a side street. which may be "technically" longer by distance but not by time when factoring in traffic.

[grapplehoeker]

引用自 dd31879：

the AI could re-evaluate traffic and see that the "shortest" route includes a high wait time and detour before it even gets there. in real life people do this all the time when the look at online maps or GPS. they also do this on the fly when they approach intersections and look at the window to see "omg that line will take me forever..." and then turn down a side street. which may be "technically" longer by distance but not by time when factoring in traffic.

16k vehicles constantly monitoring and evaluating traffic conditions ahead of them and making route recalculations on the fly in real time.
Yeah right, good luck with that lmao.
And of course by that same impractical logic, you will have to apply that to all vehicles in the game and the pedestrians too, so add another 65k real time independent route calculations.
Clearly, that will not work.
CO adopted a simple method of route calculation from the outset and unless you physically make changes to the route they use, they will stick to it. They do not even see or acknowledge the presence of another vehicle. The only thing they recognise is a red light in front of them means stop.
That is the game mechanic and that is what you have to play with. So learn to play with it and even take advantage of it. Also stop focusing on the traffic or the route so much and look at the bigger picture. Plan your origin and destination points. These have a far greater role to play in your traffic's route calculation.
Mastering your traffic without mods is possible with enough time and practise.
I wish you success ;)

[Alpine Womble]

Unless of course you plan on re-writing CS and using the 93 petaflop Sunway TaihuLight at the National Supercomputing Centre in Wuxi, which at peak performance can perform around 93,000 trillion calculations per second.

[MarkJohnson]

引用自 dd31879：

i disagree. the AI does need changing. as 'predictable' as it may be (taking the shortest route) it is still a huge problem for the simple reason it is so simple.

There are your first two major issues.

First, traffic takes the quickest route, Not the shortest. If you build a short 10 block road that is only 25kmh then build a 20 block highway that is 100kmh, the traffic will take the much faster (2 times faster) highway.

Second, you are confusing simple with easy. Just because something is simple doesn't mean you can build any way you want. You must follow game rules. i.e. you can't build a single entry into your city and not expect a traffic jam into your city as it grows. You'll need alternate paths, entries, forms of transportation, etc.

Around 20k, traffic started getting annoying, but it wasn't horrible. it was easily fixed with a few changes here or there

There you go, you are already figuring out how he game wants you to build. Just keep expanding on that and you'll get it eventually.

[/quote]which its definitely caused by the bad AI. if the AI was more than just take the shortest route then things like that wouldnt constantly happen. the AI could re-evaluate traffic and see that the "shortest" route includes a high wait time and detour before it even gets there. in real life people do this all the time when the look at online maps or GPS. they also do this on the fly when they approach intersections and look at the window to see "omg that line will take me forever..." and then turn down a side street. which may be "technically" longer by distance but not by time when factoring in traffic. [/quote]

This game already struggles to handle 80k worth of traffic, adding any more to the game engine will kill performance so badly you'll eliminate the mobility PC market, which is probably the largest market right now.

But like I already said, you are focusing on managing traffic instead of eliminating it.

To eliminate traffic you can:

Eliminate import/exports. They provide nothing and everyone always over does Industry and causes an insane amount of traffic. You need very little industry, and technically you don't need any at all. Dezone areas that are exporting

Balance your zoning. Building a segregated section of one type of zone will lead to insane amounts of traffic. Build residential next to C,I, and O. Build specialized industry next to generic industry. Build commerce next to specialized industry.

You can completely eliminate commerce and industry from the game. It is not needed. You can just build offices and residential only, then add commerce and industry where you want them.

Your biggest traffic will come from growth. Buildings take a while to grow to maturity. As hey grow they cause extra demand over and over as they grow calling in huge amounts of traffic into your city. My workaround is simply play at x3 speeds and build slowly. This gives buildings time to mature as you expand and keeps traffic at a minimum.

Look a your old 50k city, then look at the old areas you built and see how traffic is almost nonexistent, while your newer areas are flooded with traffic in comparison.

Maybe start a new thread with a link to your saved game and I'm sure we can get you to 300k easy.

[Moro]

引用自 grapplehoeker：

引用自 dd31879：

the AI could re-evaluate traffic and see that the "shortest" route includes a high wait time and detour before it even gets there. in real life people do this all the time when the look at online maps or GPS. they also do this on the fly when they approach intersections and look at the window to see "omg that line will take me forever..." and then turn down a side street. which may be "technically" longer by distance but not by time when factoring in traffic.

16k vehicles constantly monitoring and evaluating traffic conditions ahead of them and making route recalculations on the fly in real time.
Yeah right, good luck with that lmao.
And of course by that same impractical logic, you will have to apply that to all vehicles in the game and the pedestrians too, so add another 65k real time independent route calculations.
Clearly, that will not work.
CO adopted a simple method of route calculation from the outset and unless you physically make changes to the route they use, they will stick to it. They do not even see or acknowledge the presence of another vehicle. The only thing they recognise is a red light in front of them means stop.
That is the game mechanic and that is what you have to play with. So learn to play with it and even take advantage of it. Also stop focusing on the traffic or the route so much and look at the bigger picture. Plan your origin and destination points. These have a far greater role to play in your traffic's route calculation.
Mastering your traffic without mods is possible with enough time and practise.
I wish you success ;)

pedestrians arent clogging up the streets causing service breakdown. which, in the near future, emergency vehicles will get an update. however the issue still remains that it is only the traffic congestion of cars/trucks that is really a major issue. peds can take whatever the hell path they want and it really doesnt matter in so much as its just on less car on the street at the moment in time.

引用自 rmjohnson144：

引用自 dd31879：

i disagree. the AI does need changing. as 'predictable' as it may be (taking the shortest route) it is still a huge problem for the simple reason it is so simple.

There are your first two major issues.

First, traffic takes the quickest route, Not the shortest. If you build a short 10 block road that is only 25kmh then build a 20 block highway that is 100kmh, the traffic will take the much faster (2 times faster) highway.

Second, you are confusing simple with easy. Just because something is simple doesn't mean you can build any way you want. You must follow game rules. i.e. you can't build a single entry into your city and not expect a traffic jam into your city as it grows. You'll need alternate paths, entries, forms of transportation, etc.

Around 20k, traffic started getting annoying, but it wasn't horrible. it was easily fixed with a few changes here or there

There you go, you are already figuring out how he game wants you to build. Just keep expanding on that and you'll get it eventually.

which its definitely caused by the bad AI. if the AI was more than just take the shortest route then things like that wouldnt constantly happen. the AI could re-evaluate traffic and see that the "shortest" route includes a high wait time and detour before it even gets there. in real life people do this all the time when the look at online maps or GPS. they also do this on the fly when they approach intersections and look at the window to see "omg that line will take me forever..." and then turn down a side street. which may be "technically" longer by distance but not by time when factoring in traffic. [/quote]

This game already struggles to handle 80k worth of traffic, adding any more to the game engine will kill performance so badly you'll eliminate the mobility PC market, which is probably the largest market right now.

But like I already said, you are focusing on managing traffic instead of eliminating it.

To eliminate traffic you can:

Eliminate import/exports. They provide nothing and everyone always over does Industry and causes an insane amount of traffic. You need very little industry, and technically you don't need any at all. Dezone areas that are exporting

Balance your zoning. Building a segregated section of one type of zone will lead to insane amounts of traffic. Build residential next to C,I, and O. Build specialized industry next to generic industry. Build commerce next to specialized industry.

You can completely eliminate commerce and industry from the game. It is not needed. You can just build offices and residential only, then add commerce and industry where you want them.

Your biggest traffic will come from growth. Buildings take a while to grow to maturity. As hey grow they cause extra demand over and over as they grow calling in huge amounts of traffic into your city. My workaround is simply play at x3 speeds and build slowly. This gives buildings time to mature as you expand and keeps traffic at a minimum.

Look a your old 50k city, then look at the old areas you built and see how traffic is almost nonexistent, while your newer areas are flooded with traffic in comparison.

Maybe start a new thread with a link to your saved game and I'm sure we can get you to 300k easy. [/quote]

-i have multiple entry and exits
-my industry has direct and separate access to the highway
-my zones are not segregated, except where i have specialized tourism/leisure which are not an issue as they are smaller
-my oldest zones are the most flooded not the most empty contrary to typical gameplay i suppose is what your pointing out as well.

maybe i will start a help thread at some point.

[Twelvefield]

引用自 Apples：

Variety is the spice of life.

I thought so too for a long time, until I discovered smoked Hungarian paprika.