What exactly is Kaede supposed to be better at in terms of gameplay?

[Persona Au Gratin]

To anyone that played the demo, I've noticed something I think is either an oversight or misguided about the two characters. Just posting this in the event someone can share some info that I've missed. What is Kaede good at that Hayate isn't? If it's footspeed on the ground, that is something I really think the developers should reconsider. That is a useless attribute in a game where you can Shinobi Step/Dash, as well as where there's a lot of verticality and jumping to be performed.

I considered maybe she's better at managing items, I'm really not seeing that. In fact, I almost suspect that Hayate is faster and stronger than she is. Which really feels silly, but mostly because I really would like to know exactly what her strong suit as a character is supposed to be. Hayate is not slower than her in a meaningful way.

Edit: Okay, it's definitely a "faster normal run speed." You know... in a game with a dash. And lots of platforming involving jumps. This is a really stupid choice. I can see a few arbitrary seeming ways to make this an advantage, but Hayate has access to a dash. He's effectively allowed to somewhat cheat out of his shortcoming. That and you can just jump in sporadic bursts, there are segments with treadmills in the original where you just sort of jump rapidly, now I'm wondering how Shinobi Step affects that. What really comes to mind is just the whole auto scrolling vertical segment of the last stage.

There is nothing about this distinction that feels fun, and I feel like the distinction is so arbitrary, whatever segments Kaede does gain an advantage in are going to be extremely dubious in design.

[white2k]

Originally posted by koinzell:

Originally posted by white2k:

Oh boy, then you won't get past stage 4, lol! :D

i could not even get passed stage 2.

screw that. ill wait for someone releasing a trainer or cheat engine .

Dude, you just need to relax and try again. This game is not impossible, but you need patience, and also to memorize all the tricks and stuff. It's certainly a tough, yesterday I wanted almost to give up at level 4. Today I'm at level 5, struggling with a lot of enemies, but I can assure jumps are my least concern.

Also...I mean...a trainer could never be available, because this isn't a famous triple A videogame after all. Although it wouldn't be bad if someone really made it, though.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by commanderyammarkx62000:

What did bro do wrong? His criticism was inoffensive. I'm noticing this a lot.

I called two people names because, and one of them is in this thread, of this notion of trying to tell people how to feel about the game relative to very little input about its design. And, frankly, I have the top times in every single time attack stage on all difficulties now. I swept the board. So I've thought just a wee little bit about how this game works. Just like I had prior to that ban and seeing a person ready to slam the report button because this really is just about trying to convince people to feel a certain way.

"No, no don't wait for cheat engine just--"

Just what? Like, the game is gonna irritate people, and in ways I think it's okay to be doing and in other ways that have me going "Why would you do this?"

I think there's a lot of stuff that will understandably turn off players to this game. Some of the stuff like the item management, I think is something you can learn. The controls, definitely going to irritate people. The differences between the two characters? That just feels insane to me, Kaede just feels bad in a way where when I switch between characters, the way stages are designed, a lot of the game is spent jumping and her's just feels like a complete chore, like I thought it'd be.

The stages with straight aways she kind of shines, but she's never going to beat Hayate or be as fun in the stages with a lot of vertical space. I can't change the game, but I also think being someone who wants to try to "rally the troops" is a pretty detestable personality trait.

The game is decent, but like all of these Natsume Atari remakes I've played it just has some stuff that feels infuriating at the player's expense and there's not much to be done about that, at least in my experience.

[ch]

I didn't even know the characters were different gameplay-wise lol. Well, I'm #TeamKaede anyway.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by ch:

I didn't even know the characters were different gameplay-wise lol. Well, I'm #TeamKaede anyway.

You know it the instant you jump as Hayate. He just flies lol. I think Kaede having a higher vertical jump would be a nice compromise if there were more segments where pogoing advantaged it. I really wish the Time Attack board separated the two, because my times as Kaede don't even show on the leaderboard. It's only your "best" run.

[ch]

Originally posted by Persona Au Gratin:

You know it the instant you jump as Hayate. He just flies lol. I think Kaede having a higher vertical jump would be a nice compromise if there were more segments where pogoing advantaged it. I really wish the Time Attack board separated the two, because my times as Kaede don't even show on the leaderboard. It's only your "best" run.

Yep just tested it, it's quite noticeable. I guess you don't even need the down+jump hovering in many areas as Hayate, where as Kaede it's mandatory.
She has to be better at something else then, no? Maybe it's something not immediately obvious. Otherwise I guess she acts as an additional challenge mode.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by ch:

Originally posted by Persona Au Gratin:

You know it the instant you jump as Hayate. He just flies lol. I think Kaede having a higher vertical jump would be a nice compromise if there were more segments where pogoing advantaged it. I really wish the Time Attack board separated the two, because my times as Kaede don't even show on the leaderboard. It's only your "best" run.

Yep just tested it, it's quite noticeable. I guess you don't even need the down+jump hovering in many areas as Hayate, where as Kaede it's mandatory.
She has to be better at something else then, no? Maybe it's something not immediately obvious. Otherwise I guess she's acts as an additional challenge mode.

Hayate has a lot of cool moments where, because his jump or being in the air doesn't slam his momentum to a crawl, like in Stage 3 when you enter the final section with the shotgun guys, he can take platforms by running off of them and then just wall running to continue his movement.

Kaede jumps higher and she can run faster than he can on the ground. Her Shadow Step also recovers more quickly, but what I find myself doing is just dashing a lot with her anyway, so it's this very finnicky/annoying "advantage" because I still end up not really getting to flow the same way Hayate allows for. I find myself having to think a lot about busy inputs with her.

[oyssoyss]

didn't notice the difference too. I finished normal game with Kaede and played Hayate beating the first level.

so they give minor differences to character rather than substantial ones.

maybe that will cause the stages harder to design so they keep the differences small.

[white2k]

Originally posted by oyssoyss:

didn't notice the difference too. I finished normal game with Kaede and played Hayate beating the first level.
.

You didn't notice the difference?? Lol...

[xaerock [RVR-42]]

Kaede losing all air momentum if you dash off a ledge is pretty insane. With Hayate this is one of the only movement techniques where the game lets you carry momentum from one action into another. e.g. dash at corner of ledge for horizontal movement while falling & even float to extend it without killing all speed.

Without that Kaede has a worse jump and a less versatile dash which is just weird. If her weapons worked differently it would feel like a significantly different way to play the game (like characters in ninja warriors or pocky & rocky) but it instead just seems like a character with clunkier platforming control.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by xaerock:

Kaede losing all air momentum if you dash off a ledge is pretty insane. With Hayate this is one of the only movement techniques where the game lets you carry momentum from one action into another. e.g. dash at corner of ledge for horizontal movement while falling & even float to extend it without killing all speed.

Without that Kaede has a worse jump and a less versatile dash which is just weird. If her weapons worked differently it would feel like a significantly different way to play the game (like characters in ninja warriors or pocky & rocky) but it instead just seems like a character with clunkier platforming control.

I thought she would be stronger or something, it feels like they were functionally fixated on her base movement speed and they just stopped thinking about the context of the game entirely. My suspicion is that they didn't want to stray too far from the original design and it's like... well, look at the game, the original game didn't have score or time attack. It was what a lot of people would call "Character Action" now, one of many games like that, which is what I liked about it.

I don't mind these new modes and ideas, but the game doesn't go far enough to change what's there. You just end up having a lot of things that feel left on the table in some respects. Those aren't all fatal, but Kaede feels like a meme instead of a legitimately interesting character.

Hayate, again, can cheat out of his "weakness." His Shinobi Step may be slower, but it effectively still makes him "good enough" on the ground with tighter spacing and timing, it's just that that presence of mind pays a lot more dividends when you run into straight aways because, gasp, there are often enemies on those straight aways and he clears them with ease. The instant Kaede tries to jump, it's just bad comedy.

What I think she is supposed to be is the "level headed/score attack" based character, but that feels so needlessly restrictive. Because there are tons of moments where jumping and moving horizontally are valid solutions to some of the problems the game throws at you.

Not to stray too far, yeah, I'd love if Kaede didn't have to do these stressful sub pixel jumps to take advantage of her middling vertical jump height. I'm doing a lot of thinking for what? Being able to reach a platform that Hayate just has to take a few steps to jump and grab? That's stupid.

[klauss]

Originally posted by copypasterCPS:

lore-related reason: because her thighs and assets are too big to do ninja moves 😂😂

ingame reason: I think the devs wanted each characters have different gameplay mechanics, because the original game they play exactly the same. Another reason is maybe devs knew people gonna play Kaede because of "muh waifu, muh thighs and jiggles sprites" then they limit the jump distance to make it like "oh so you're gonna play with her, have this then" thing.

What exactly is your argument here? That choosing characters based on utilitarian reasons is "correct" while choosing based on aesthetic preferences is not? I know logic thinking is not the norm, but since this is a game and preference takes precedence your remark is truly baffling.

[Koshimae]

Call me crazy, but Kaede is actually better than Hayate.

I have completed all time attacks and deathless runs with both characters, and Kaede's footspeed advantage goes really far and is noticably a lot more universal than Hayate's jump advantage once you get used to platforming with Kaede.
Once you get used to Kaede's walk speed, things like spacing against bosses, outpacing enemy attacks/projectiles in tight spaces, moving while attacking (attack, walk, attack, walk, etc) becomes so natural that Hayate's movement feels very stiff in comparison.

After few hours of playing, you actually learn to stay more grounded in this game, being airborne is rather dangerous unless you are really forced to. Hovering solves most of Kaede's issues with her jump, the only issue I have is ledge-grabbing really sucks after a hover, which makes a couple areas on Stage 5 in particular annoying to deal with but those are very few circumstances.