Ellie vs Abby

[PERTIM]

Ellie for me. The best character. I didn't like Abby. The story in The Last of Us 2 disappointed me at the end

[PERTIM]

Vince a écrit :

What The Last of Us Part II does best, perhaps unintentionally, is reveal the maturity levels of its audience, especially during debates. That might sound condescending at first glance, but it's not meant to be. It’s more about emotional intelligence and the ability to separate narrative logic from character attachment.

Imagine this as a thought experiment:
If The Last of Us Part I had centered around Abby, her father, and their friends, and the climax involved a complete stranger brutally murdering her unarmed dad with a scalpel to the throat... most players would view Abby’s desire for justice as deeply human. And just.

The problem is, the same audience then struggles to apply that same moral clarity when Joel is the one holding the scalpel. Why? Because he's “our” Joel. And that’s exactly the point:
Too many of these debates get derailed by emotional loyalty rather than objective analysis.

So let’s break it down into actual narrative facts:

1.) Joel murdered an unarmed doctor who posed no threat.

2.) Abby's motivation was simple: justice for her father.

3.) Abby and her group planned a targeted hit. They killed Joel, and spared everyone else.

4.) Ellie, fully aware of Joel’s past (like, wtf, that twist was sick and dehumanized Ellie for me), chose to pursue Abby in vengeance.

5.) In doing so, Ellie left a trail of bodies... many of whom were innocent or uninvolved.

6.) When Ellie was at Abby’s mercy, Abby let her live despite all the havoc she had wreaked.

7.) Ellie later reignited the conflict -- again! -- despite Abby’s act of mercy and the destruction already left in her wake she was fully aware of and regretful about (cough pregnant woman cough).

These are not subjective takes. These are plot events. And when you lay them out without the emotional filter of character bias, the narrative argument becomes clearer:

Abby showed restraint. Ellie didn't.
Abby ended the cycle. Ellie perpetuated it.
Abby grew. Ellie regressed.

You don't have to like Abby. But you should be able to acknowledge the arc. And in any serious moral analysis of the story, it’s hard to argue that Abby isn’t the more balanced, emotionally mature character by the end.

I'll correct you:

1.) Joel murdered an unarmed doctor who posed no threat.
CORRECTION: Joel shot the armed doctor (he had a scalpel in his hand) and did not allow Joel to approach Ellie, see videos

2.) Abby's motivation was simple: justice for her father.
CORRECT

3.) Abby and her group were planning a targeted attack. They killed Joel and spared everyone else.
CORRECTION: In the end they did spare everyone but first they had a fight because some of the group wanted to kill Ellie and Tommy

4.) Ellie, fully aware of Joel's past (like wtf, this twist was sick and dehumanizing to Ellie), decided to pursue Abby in revenge.
CORRECTION: So in your opinion, she should have still thanked Abby and forgiven her right away? Just because Joel had a darker past?

5.) Ellie left a trail of dead bodies in her wake... many of whom were innocent or uninvolved.
CORRECTION: You're wrong, Ellie wanted each of them to know where Abby was and they attacked her, so Ellie killed them. And they weren't innocent, most of them were at Joel's execution.

6.) When Ellie was at Abby's mercy, Abby let her live despite all the havoc she had wreaked.
CORRECT

7.) Ellie later reignited the conflict -- again! -- despite Abby's act of mercy and the devastation she'd already left behind, which she was fully aware of and regretted (pregnant woman cough cough cough).
CORRECTION: Ellie still had a reason to see Abby again, why should she give up on her when she'd been after her for so long

[Mitcheeta]

Vince a écrit :

Abby showed restraint. Ellie didn't.
Abby ended the cycle. Ellie perpetuated it.
Abby grew. Ellie regressed.

I really enjoyed your post, but this idea the game wants you think Abby is better than Ellie or even Joel is just as wrong as the people that think Abby is a psycho. Abby immediately gets her revenge at the start of the game putting to rest her obsession unlike Ellie who didn’t get her reprieve till the end, and she could get at him without killing others—though she made it very clear she would have, and was already prepping to torture Jackson residents. And she still slowly tortured Joel for her own sick fulfillment.

And even though the Salt Lake Crew are all responsible for Joel’s death, Ellie really only wanted Abby the others were just a means to that end. She didn’t know Mel was pregnant.

Abby did spare Ellie at the movie theatre but that was only because of Lev, who helped Abby redeem herself. Otherwise she would have cut into Dina even saying she was glad she was pregnant (as like some kind of vengeance for Mel probably). Abby betrayed friends she had in the WLF for years for Lev, who she only knew for 2-3 days, which is obviously suppose to mirror how Joel slaughtered fireflies to save Ellie. Abby would never sacrifice Lev just like Joel would never sacrifice Ellie.

[Vince]

PERTIM a écrit :

Vince a écrit :

What The Last of Us Part II does best, perhaps unintentionally, is reveal the maturity levels of its audience, especially during debates. That might sound condescending at first glance, but it's not meant to be. It’s more about emotional intelligence and the ability to separate narrative logic from character attachment.

Imagine this as a thought experiment:
If The Last of Us Part I had centered around Abby, her father, and their friends, and the climax involved a complete stranger brutally murdering her unarmed dad with a scalpel to the throat... most players would view Abby’s desire for justice as deeply human. And just.

The problem is, the same audience then struggles to apply that same moral clarity when Joel is the one holding the scalpel. Why? Because he's “our” Joel. And that’s exactly the point:
Too many of these debates get derailed by emotional loyalty rather than objective analysis.

So let’s break it down into actual narrative facts:

1.) Joel murdered an unarmed doctor who posed no threat.

2.) Abby's motivation was simple: justice for her father.

3.) Abby and her group planned a targeted hit. They killed Joel, and spared everyone else.

4.) Ellie, fully aware of Joel’s past (like, wtf, that twist was sick and dehumanized Ellie for me), chose to pursue Abby in vengeance.

5.) In doing so, Ellie left a trail of bodies... many of whom were innocent or uninvolved.

6.) When Ellie was at Abby’s mercy, Abby let her live despite all the havoc she had wreaked.

7.) Ellie later reignited the conflict -- again! -- despite Abby’s act of mercy and the destruction already left in her wake she was fully aware of and regretful about (cough pregnant woman cough).

These are not subjective takes. These are plot events. And when you lay them out without the emotional filter of character bias, the narrative argument becomes clearer:

Abby showed restraint. Ellie didn't.
Abby ended the cycle. Ellie perpetuated it.
Abby grew. Ellie regressed.

You don't have to like Abby. But you should be able to acknowledge the arc. And in any serious moral analysis of the story, it’s hard to argue that Abby isn’t the more balanced, emotionally mature character by the end.

I'll correct you:

1.) Joel murdered an unarmed doctor who posed no threat.
CORRECTION: Joel shot the armed doctor (he had a scalpel in his hand) and did not allow Joel to approach Ellie, see videos

I'll reply to just this one because I think this one matters. Joel didn't shoot the doctor. Joel grabs the scalpel from the doctor (rendering him unarmed and no threat) and then continues to thrust said scalpel into said doctor's throat.

I really think that detail matters, which is why I'm very surprised Joel instead SHOOTS the doctor in the TV show. In the TV show he shot an armed man -- making Joel's case stronger for him than the developers of the game intended it to be -- which could mean the crux of the narrative falls apart in the TV show.

[Vince]

Mitcheeta a écrit :

Vince a écrit :

Abby showed restraint. Ellie didn't.
Abby ended the cycle. Ellie perpetuated it.
Abby grew. Ellie regressed.

I really enjoyed your post, but this idea the game wants you think Abby is better than Ellie or even Joel is just as wrong as the people that think Abby is a psycho. Abby immediately gets her revenge at the start of the game putting to rest her obsession unlike Ellie who didn’t get her reprieve till the end, and she could get at him without killing others—though she made it very clear she would have, and was already prepping to torture Jackson residents. And she still slowly tortured Joel for her own sick fulfillment.

And even though the Salt Lake Crew are all responsible for Joel’s death, Ellie really only wanted Abby the others were just a means to that end. She didn’t know Mel was pregnant.

Abby did spare Ellie at the movie theatre but that was only because of Lev, who helped Abby redeem herself. Otherwise she would have cut into Dina even saying she was glad she was pregnant (as like some kind of vengeance for Mel probably). Abby betrayed friends she had in the WLF for years for Lev, who she only knew for 2-3 days, which is obviously suppose to mirror how Joel slaughtered fireflies to save Ellie. Abby would never sacrifice Lev just like Joel would never sacrifice Ellie.

While I cannot see you debunk my analysis at all, I do admit that I didn't see Lev as Abby's "Ellie". That's interesting. That said, in every dialogue and cutscene, Abby doesn't antagonize the WLF and I even went out of my way not to kill any WLF during the escape with Lev. So from my experience, Abby didn't even remotely do the same evil act as Joel did.

[Vox Maximus]

Vince a écrit :

PERTIM a écrit :

I'll correct you:

1.) Joel murdered an unarmed doctor who posed no threat.
CORRECTION: Joel shot the armed doctor (he had a scalpel in his hand) and did not allow Joel to approach Ellie, see videos

I'll reply to just this one because I think this one matters. Joel didn't shoot the doctor. Joel grabs the scalpel from the doctor (rendering him unarmed and no threat) and then continues to thrust said scalpel into said doctor's throat.

I really think that detail matters, which is why I'm very surprised Joel instead SHOOTS the doctor in the TV show. In the TV show he shot an armed man -- making Joel's case stronger for him than the developers of the game intended it to be -- which could mean the crux of the narrative falls apart in the TV show.

Regardless of the method, the end result is the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwXEDXi46Rs

[Mitcheeta]

Vince a écrit :

While I cannot see you debunk my analysis at all, I do admit that I didn't see Lev as Abby's "Ellie". That's interesting. That said, in every dialogue and cutscene, Abby doesn't antagonize the WLF and I even went out of my way not to kill any WLF during the escape with Lev. So from my experience, Abby didn't even remotely do the same evil act as Joel did.

Well I won’t discount that player expression, but Abby does say this:
Lev: Your people ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ did that!
Abby: Hey YOU’RE my people!
And they say they will get out of this together no matter what they have to do, so Abby does betray the WLF for Lev and I can’t see a scenario where she ever sacrifices him because he represents her salvation. Also when Marlene questions Jerry on if he would sacrifice Abby the writers intentionally have him avoid the question (‘cus he knows in his heart he wouldn’t?)

So the game is begging you to empathize with Joel and recognize that “evil” inside him that he unleashed upon the fireflies, is inside of everyone and perhaps it wasn’t evil at all. “If the Lord gave me a second chance at that moment… I’d do it all over again” the game portrays that as a beautiful moment and not Joel being this like selfish psychotic murderer. And I do think it’s worth pointing out that Ellie’s life does have value, which is never really a part of this sort of conversation.