Ellie vs Abby

[PERTIM]

Ellie for me. The best character. I didn't like Abby. The story in The Last of Us 2 disappointed me at the end

[Rahns]

They should've made people play Abby's story first, in fact multiple points in her story feel like that was intended to be the first story line, especially when you're on the pier and you're fighting Tommy, as you quickly see glimpses of him and if you recently played TLOU1 you could recognise him

[Vince]

Originally posted by Rahns:

They should've made people play Abby's story first, in fact multiple points in her story feel like that was intended to be the first story line, especially when you're on the pier and you're fighting Tommy, as you quickly see glimpses of him and if you recently played TLOU1 you could recognise him

I partially agree. I ranted to a friend when Abby's part started as I believed it was very on the nose: It was already obvious while playing Ellie that Ellie was murdering good people. There was a beautiful "show don't tell" fashion about it. Somehow, Naughty Dog thought they had to "tell" it too. I found it terribly redundant and it only got interesting with the introduction of Lev.

[Lord Poshname Von Plumbingparts]

Originally posted by Molesworth.Houghton:

Glad to play Abby most the time. I hate what Ellie became for. A brainless killer.

Two cheeks of the same arse.

[PERTIM]

Originally posted by Molesworth.Houghton:

Glad to play Abby most the time. I hate what Ellie became for. A brainless killer.

And what was Ellie supposed to do in your opinion, thank Abby, make up with her and go for a coffee together? And the fact that Abby killed in cold blood didn't bother you? They were both on the same page, albeit on opposite sides, and they were both out for revenge. And in revenge killing, they don't all shake hands and hug.

[Vince]

Originally posted by PERTIM:

Originally posted by Molesworth.Houghton:

Glad to play Abby most the time. I hate what Ellie became for. A brainless killer.

And what was Ellie supposed to do in your opinion, thank Abby, make up with her and go for a coffee together? And the fact that Abby killed in cold blood didn't bother you? They were both on the same page, albeit on opposite sides, and they were both out for revenge. And in revenge killing, they don't all shake hands and hug.

Simpe: Ellie should've seen it for what it was --> equilibrium. I was unpleasantly surprised when we learned that Ellie KNEW about what Joel had done at the Firefly hospital and STILL decided to react to the act of rightful revenge with revenge. Her actions would've been better relatable if she HAD NOT known about Joel's horrific action.

Put simply, if my dad murdered one entire group of people including innocents and suffered the consequences for it... I'd accept it. I would be effing angry, but I wouldn't go out of my way to continue the cycle of violence. Karma and all that. It's because of this that I believe Ellie is definitely the villain.

[Razin_Shah]

Originally posted by Vince:

Originally posted by PERTIM:

And what was Ellie supposed to do in your opinion, thank Abby, make up with her and go for a coffee together? And the fact that Abby killed in cold blood didn't bother you? They were both on the same page, albeit on opposite sides, and they were both out for revenge. And in revenge killing, they don't all shake hands and hug.

Simpe: Ellie should've seen it for what it was --> equilibrium. I was unpleasantly surprised when we learned that Ellie KNEW about what Joel had done at the Firefly hospital and STILL decided to react to the act of rightful revenge with revenge. Her actions would've been better relatable if she HAD NOT known about Joel's horrific action.

Put simply, if my dad murdered one entire group of people including innocents and suffered the consequences for it... I'd accept it. Karma and all that...

I think that was the point. Ellie was using revenge as a way to deal with her trauma. In the end, she finally accepts that Joel was an evil person and deserved what happened to him and let go of her need to avenge him.

Both Ellie and Abby are victims of Joel and had to learn to move past him.

[Vince]

Originally posted by Razin_Shah:

Originally posted by Vince:

Simpe: Ellie should've seen it for what it was --> equilibrium. I was unpleasantly surprised when we learned that Ellie KNEW about what Joel had done at the Firefly hospital and STILL decided to react to the act of rightful revenge with revenge. Her actions would've been better relatable if she HAD NOT known about Joel's horrific action.

Put simply, if my dad murdered one entire group of people including innocents and suffered the consequences for it... I'd accept it. Karma and all that...

I think that was the point. Ellie was using revenge as a way to deal with her trauma. In the end, she finally accepts that Joel was an evil person and deserved what happened to him and let go of her need to avenge him.

Both Ellie and Abby are victims of Joel and had to learn to move past him.

While I don't disagree, Abby moved past it the moment she had her revenge -- carefully making sure she only hurt the monster with no collatoral damage. Ellie on the other hand, projected her trauma onto others. She may have moved past it at some point, but it took her the murder of multiple innocents.

There's a nuance there that, to me, makes Ellie the obvious unhinged villain and Abby the most relatable person. Again, just to hammer this home: her dad (and only person who could cure the world) was murdered while unarmed... by a scalpel to the throat...

[PERTIM]

Originally posted by Vince:

Originally posted by PERTIM:

And what was Ellie supposed to do in your opinion, thank Abby, make up with her and go for a coffee together? And the fact that Abby killed in cold blood didn't bother you? They were both on the same page, albeit on opposite sides, and they were both out for revenge. And in revenge killing, they don't all shake hands and hug.

Simpe: Ellie should've seen it for what it was --> equilibrium. I was unpleasantly surprised when we learned that Ellie KNEW about what Joel had done at the Firefly hospital and STILL decided to react to the act of rightful revenge with revenge. Her actions would've been better relatable if she HAD NOT known about Joel's horrific action.

Put simply, if my dad murdered one entire group of people including innocents and suffered the consequences for it... I'd accept it. I would be effing angry, but I wouldn't go out of my way to continue the cycle of violence. Karma and all that. It's because of this that I believe Ellie is definitely the villain.

Joel wasn't a bad person at all, and he saved Ellie in that hospital. Whatever was he supposed to do let her die there? She was like his stepdaughter. He acted the way anyone who had a loved one lying there would have acted. Joel wasn't bad at all.

[PERTIM]

Originally posted by Vince:

Originally posted by Razin_Shah:

I think that was the point. Ellie was using revenge as a way to deal with her trauma. In the end, she finally accepts that Joel was an evil person and deserved what happened to him and let go of her need to avenge him.

Both Ellie and Abby are victims of Joel and had to learn to move past him.

While I don't disagree, Abby moved past it the moment she had her revenge -- carefully making sure she only hurt the monster with no collatoral damage. Ellie on the other hand, projected her trauma onto others. She may have moved past it at some point, but it took her the murder of multiple innocents.

There's a nuance there that, to me, makes Ellie the obvious unhinged villain and Abby the most relatable person. Again, just to hammer this home: her dad (and only person who could cure the world) was murdered while unarmed... by a scalpel to the throat...

Abby's father certainly wouldn't have cured the world, and the cure might not even have worked. Ellie could have died completely unnecessarily. Joel saved her, some of you still can't understand that. Just as Joel would make anyone shudder if they had a loved one lying there. Joel did the right thing

[PERTIM]

Originally posted by Razin_Shah:

Originally posted by Vince:

Simpe: Ellie should've seen it for what it was --> equilibrium. I was unpleasantly surprised when we learned that Ellie KNEW about what Joel had done at the Firefly hospital and STILL decided to react to the act of rightful revenge with revenge. Her actions would've been better relatable if she HAD NOT known about Joel's horrific action.

Put simply, if my dad murdered one entire group of people including innocents and suffered the consequences for it... I'd accept it. Karma and all that...

I think that was the point. Ellie was using revenge as a way to deal with her trauma. In the end, she finally accepts that Joel was an evil person and deserved what happened to him and let go of her need to avenge him.

Both Ellie and Abby are victims of Joel and had to learn to move past him.

Joel was a evil person because he saved Ellie from an unnecessary death??

[Mitcheeta]

Originally posted by Razin_Shah:

I think that was the point. Ellie was using revenge as a way to deal with her trauma. In the end, she finally accepts that Joel was an evil person and deserved what happened to him and let go of her need to avenge him.

Both Ellie and Abby are victims of Joel and had to learn to move past him.

The game definitely did not want you to think that lol look at that final scene between them, the game was putting so much emphasis on how Joel was not a villain. Look at that scene during the winter dance flashback after Ellie yells at Joel and he slumps away defeated, the camera focuses on Ellie’s reaction and you can see the guilt on her face like she’s asking herself Why did I do that? And that’s the real purpose of the TLOU cliffhanger, Ellie’s trauma over witnessing what happened to Joel is compounded by how she spent the last years with this person she had tremendous love for being angry at him.

And all the characters are in the same boat lashing out in pain, Ellie goes on a rampage just like Joel did because the game is trying to tell you how much they meant to each other especially with that reoccurring motif “If I ever were to lose you, I’d surely lose myself.”

[boRZ]

Originally posted by Mitcheeta:

Originally posted by Razin_Shah:

I think that was the point. Ellie was using revenge as a way to deal with her trauma. In the end, she finally accepts that Joel was an evil person and deserved what happened to him and let go of her need to avenge him.

Both Ellie and Abby are victims of Joel and had to learn to move past him.

The game definitely did not want you to think that lol look at that final scene between them, the game was putting so much emphasis on how Joel was not a villain. Look at that scene during the winter dance flashback after Ellie yells at Joel and he slumps away defeated, the camera focuses on Ellie’s reaction and you can see the guilt on her face like she’s asking herself Why did I do that? And that’s the real purpose of the TLOU cliffhanger, Ellie’s trauma over witnessing what happened to Joel is compounded by how she spent the last years with this person she had tremendous love for being angry at him.

And all the characters are in the same boat lashing out in pain, Ellie goes on a rampage just like Joel did because the game is trying to tell you how much they meant to each other especially with that reoccurring motif “If I ever were to lose you, I’d surely lose myself.”

this what I mean by the game is "confused"
well done sir

[PERTIM]

Originally posted by Mitcheeta:

Originally posted by Razin_Shah:

I think that was the point. Ellie was using revenge as a way to deal with her trauma. In the end, she finally accepts that Joel was an evil person and deserved what happened to him and let go of her need to avenge him.

Both Ellie and Abby are victims of Joel and had to learn to move past him.

The game definitely did not want you to think that lol look at that final scene between them, the game was putting so much emphasis on how Joel was not a villain. Look at that scene during the winter dance flashback after Ellie yells at Joel and he slumps away defeated, the camera focuses on Ellie’s reaction and you can see the guilt on her face like she’s asking herself Why did I do that? And that’s the real purpose of the TLOU cliffhanger, Ellie’s trauma over witnessing what happened to Joel is compounded by how she spent the last years with this person she had tremendous love for being angry at him.

And all the characters are in the same boat lashing out in pain, Ellie goes on a rampage just like Joel did because the game is trying to tell you how much they meant to each other especially with that reoccurring motif “If I ever were to lose you, I’d surely lose myself.”

Exactly

[Vince]

What The Last of Us Part II does best, perhaps unintentionally, is reveal the maturity levels of its audience, especially during debates. That might sound condescending at first glance, but it's not meant to be. It’s more about emotional intelligence and the ability to separate narrative logic from character attachment.

Imagine this as a thought experiment:
If The Last of Us Part I had centered around Abby, her father, and their friends, and the climax involved a complete stranger brutally murdering her unarmed dad with a scalpel to the throat... most players would view Abby’s desire for justice as deeply human. And just.

The problem is, the same audience then struggles to apply that same moral clarity when Joel is the one holding the scalpel. Why? Because he's “our” Joel. And that’s exactly the point:
Too many of these debates get derailed by emotional loyalty rather than objective analysis.

So let’s break it down into actual narrative facts:

1.) Joel murdered an unarmed doctor who posed no threat.

2.) Abby's motivation was simple: justice for her father.

3.) Abby and her group planned a targeted hit. They killed Joel, and spared everyone else.

4.) Ellie, fully aware of Joel’s past (like, wtf, that twist was sick and dehumanized Ellie for me), chose to pursue Abby in vengeance.

5.) In doing so, Ellie left a trail of bodies... many of whom were innocent or uninvolved.

6.) When Ellie was at Abby’s mercy, Abby let her live despite all the havoc she had wreaked.

7.) Ellie later reignited the conflict -- again! -- despite Abby’s act of mercy and the destruction already left in her wake she was fully aware of and regretful about (cough pregnant woman cough).

These are not subjective takes. These are plot events. And when you lay them out without the emotional filter of character bias, the narrative argument becomes clearer:

Abby showed restraint. Ellie didn't.
Abby ended the cycle. Ellie perpetuated it.
Abby grew. Ellie regressed.

You don't have to like Abby. But you should be able to acknowledge the arc. And in any serious moral analysis of the story, it’s hard to argue that Abby isn’t the more balanced, emotionally mature character by the end.

[mark1971]

I like both women.

They have quite the development. Simplified said, Ellie lost something while Abby found something. From positive to negative and reverse. There's this saying, "Karma is a b_tch" and in that context, it figures for me.

It's an interesting story, more interesting as its prequel. The depth is impressive.

But to answer your question: even with the catastrophic event being her introduction, I would prefer Abby. Because what counts for me is the future, not the past.