MAJOR SPOILERS. TLOU2 is a HORRIBLE story that ruined the game

[Frost]

MAJOR SPOILERS. Do not read unless you've played the game first, or you really don't care:
==============================================

TLOU part 2 is a absolutely PATHETIC story (but No Return / combat is very well done)
Biggest killers of the game:

1. Not that Joel dies, but HOW he dies: The writer ignores how he's very aware to avoid trusting anyone else so easily and is never caught off guard. Yet he trusts a large group of armed people he's never seen before, gives their real names to strangers, KNOWING some could be looking for some payback for the hundreds of people he's slaughtered, stands in the middle of them all instead of standing at the edge near a door being wary, even acts like he's clueless with "you sound like you've heard of me (i cannot IMAGINE WHY ANYONE would have heard of me or be looking for me)" and remains clueless as if it STILL doesn't occur to him even after seeing their reactions, and dies an idiot death.

2. He doesn't say "I just saved your life" or "He came at me with a knife and would not let me take her without coming at me with a knife" or "He was going to kill a child without her knowledge or consent, having no proof it would save anyone, like my daughter was kiIIed in the name of "saving everyone else". He says nothing.

3. When you finally get to the moment you were waiting for: the confrontation as Ellie against Abby: Oh wait, go back and start all over (rather than have both stories progress back and forth like they did initially before Joel died - you know, a climax), as Abbie now. Sorry you'll have to wait for that confrontation all over again.

4. You are FORCED to play as Abby for just as long as you just played with Ellie, and couldn't care about her in the least. You love it when she dies, hope she dies and even let her die many times, proving it was a pathetic game design decision. You only let her live so you can get back to the confrontation and (hopefully) finish Abby off.

5. You are FORCED to now beat the crap out of ELLIE USING the character you still hate: Abby, rather than playing as Ellie as best you can but realizing they'll "make" you temporarily lose. It's more fun to just lose and watch Abby die dozens of times, which is more proof this was a pathetic game decision.

Designers could have let people control Ellie and you "win" by surviving so long to then show the "you (temporarily) lose" cutscene (star wars: survivor does this with your first fight with a character that betrayed you - you can't win that fight, so you eventually temporarily "lose" and it works. They don't make you fight against the main character playing as the character you hate).

6. You FINALLY get to play as ELLIE against Abby to finish out the game and you can't wait for that final showdown. You've slaughtered hundreds of people you never even met, that never had anything to do with Joel. You finally can kill the girl who so brutally and viciously TORTURED Bill before killing him, while you watched her put a golf club through his skull while you begged her not to, watched her kill Jesse and never hear another word about Jesse, even mourning him, watched her shoot Tommy and give him permanent injury, but instead of getting that revenge, which is a big part of what the whole game is about, suddenly the writer decides: "Oh, never mind. Violence is not the answer. Even though I've just slaughtered hundreds of people I've never met that had nothing to do with it, and tortured others to find you, I've decided violence is not the answer. You can go on with your life now - I no longer care that you tortured Bill in a most horrific manner before putting a golf club through his skull while I was watching BEGGING you not to - or killed Jesse - it wasn't about that - it was about me realizing Joel knows I forgave him - I don't care that you brutally murdered him while I watch and begged you not to anymore, or about Jesse, or about just now losing my finger to you - have a nice life!"

You have to be pretty clueless to write the game this way.

I tried playing the story a second time, and it's just too pathetic as I try to force myself to "enjoy" it. So I play to the confrontation, then load another saved where the Abby part is over.

"No return" mode is interesting, and the game, I will readily admit, handles combat exceptionally well, but how disgusting they let the writer/ director/ whoever utterly destroy what instead could have easily been an amazing game/story.

Please get someone else who has a clue to take oversight or write TLOU part 3. Maybe that will actually be something better than a disgusting trashing of what any mediocre person could have easily made a great story about in TLOU2.

And of course the coupe de gras: Lesbians, homosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, emasculated men, women in actual men's bodies, women being the men - the woke culture forced into the game at every turn, taking a second metaphorical dump on a story they already flushed,

[halbermensch999]

"The writer ignores how he's very aware to avoid trusting anyone"
Oh yeah, people never make any mistakes. Which is what Tommy did when he said their names. People in distress are extra careful obviously and have full control over themselves, it's when they are their best and brightest

And Joel himself never improvises with anything.
Hey, let pixel daddy get you new strings for the guitar. Let's go through a hotel which we don't know if there are any infected in.
The guitar strings alone almost put and end to Ellie as in the LAST moment she is saved!

Such a great father figure. Such priorities!
It's easy to complain, it's easy to lose track on what to complain.

"You love it when she dies, hope she dies "
What a bunch of bullocks. Ellie lost someone she cares about, so did Abby. Both are rather normal, and both put their friends at high risk for their own personal grief.
Such superb rolemodels!

yada yada yada more nonsense

" the woke culture forced into the game at every turn"
Oh really. Seems like a dangerous place filled with people who are religiously insane (the scars) and fanatically fascistic like Isaac

Despite its faults, the second game is better than the first one.
Better levels (although often too small and linear), better AI and better combat

[Frost]

It's not a "mistake" to tell every armed group of strangers your names as you stand in the middle of the room surrounded by them when you know hundreds will be on the lookout for you for payback. It's outright cluelessness.

You said: "Hey, let pixel daddy get you new strings for the guitar. Let's go through a hotel which we don't know if there are any infected in. "

If you played the game, Tommy said: "That area is long overdue for a sweep anyway"

I said: "You love it when she dies, hope she dies "
You said: "What a bunch of bullocks. Ellie lost someone she cares about,... "

I'm talking about the person playing the game loves it when Abby dies while you're playing as Abby.

Yes, they had to put in a religious nut group of course that want to kill a kid for shaving their head, as part of the woke indoctrination. Forgot about that woke part of the agenda they put in as well. Thank you for pointing it out.

The second has far better game and fight mechanics. The first had a far better story.

[Affronter]

“Lol” to the OP

[halbermensch999]

"Yes, they had to put in a religious nut group of course that want to kill a kid for shaving their head, as part of the woke indoctrination"
And it's obviously not indoctrination if it's religion right, or the fascism of Isaac?
And since when are human rights indoctrination?
A drunken guy can't take that two young kids are happy. QUEER! Low IQ folk stuff.

"I'm talking about the person playing the game loves it when Abby dies while you're playing as Abby."
That's downright retarded, as said, her grief is of no less value than hers.
The dumb thing both do is to put their own grief ABOVE THE SAFETY OF OTHERS.
And obviously this too goes unnoticed by so many of you.
Hey, I'm having a relationship that seems to start with Dina. I'LL RISK HER LIFE!!!! Derp

Tommy didn't know they were going through the hotel. He wasn't with them. That was an improvised part on them. Somehow the game doesn't allow for people to go around a building either, again this is the problem with too linear games.
But for a couple of strings they make a decision that risks both their lives.
If they're going to go through that it's at least better that all three of them go, being that Ellie is not as experienced as the brothers either.

And when comes the time when a building that is bad shape is even safe to go through?
It would actually make more sense to torch it down.
Or at the very least they could make a lot of noise when they are outside to see if there are any noises inside. But nope, they just go in, almost like the story demands them to be dumb for us to have more bonding moments with him and her.

"The first had a far better story."
No it didn't. A zombie apocalypse with a golden child, downright cliche. I was already laughing at this stuff back in the 80s.

[Frost]

"That's downright retarded, as said, her grief is of no less value than hers."

Not talking about Abby's griefs.
Not talking about Ellie's griefs.
Lack of reading comprehension FTL.

[halbermensch999]

Originally posted by Frost:

"That's downright retarded, as said, her grief is of no less value than hers."

Not talking about Abby's griefs.
Not talking about Ellie's griefs.
Lack of reading comprehension FTL.

Jeez dude. You were quoted:
"I'm talking about the person playing the game loves it when Abby dies while you're playing as Abby."

[Frost]

You're pointing to grief of the characters and comparing their grief, I said nothing about the grief of the characters.
Good luck.

[Holografix]

how many more long chatgpt threads from people who didn't understand TLOU2 are we going to get?

i don't have anymore jesters so i can't seed this farm.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by Frost:

MAJOR SPOILERS. Do not read unless you've played the game first, or you really don't care:
==============================================

TLOU part 2 is a absolutely PATHETIC story (but No Return / combat is very well done)
Biggest killers of the game:

1. Not that Joel dies, but HOW he dies: The writer ignores how he's very aware to avoid trusting anyone else so easily and is never caught off guard. Yet he trusts a large group of armed people he's never seen before, gives their real names to strangers, KNOWING some could be looking for some payback for the hundreds of people he's slaughtered, stands in the middle of them all instead of standing at the edge near a door being wary, even acts like he's clueless with "you sound like you've heard of me (i cannot IMAGINE WHY ANYONE would have heard of me or be looking for me)" and remains clueless as if it STILL doesn't occur to him even after seeing their reactions, and dies an idiot death.

People usually point to that moment, but for me, something felt off much earlier, right from the opening scene. Joel recounting the events with the Fireflies to his brother, unprompted and without any real pressure, didn’t sit right. Is this really the same Joel who would shut Ellie down with hostility whenever she asked about his past in Part I? Now he’s suddenly opening up on his own? That disconnect was jarring.

Then the game follows it up with a warm, sentimental scene between Joel and Ellie. At that point, it was clear: this wasn’t the same Joel I hated playing as in Part I, but still respected as a well-crafted character. (And keep in mind, this is all before the four-year time jump, so "character development" does not justify it.) It felt like a retcon to present him as a “good guy,” maybe to make his death land harder?

My overall impression is that in the first game, we had a tough-as-nails Joel and an empathetic, emotionally open Ellie. In Part II, we get a tough-as-nails Ellie and an empathetic, emotionally open Joel. It comes across as narratively convenient rather than earned, and that’s the weakest part of the story for me. Still, I wouldn’t say it ruined the experience the way the late-game, medically implausible Firefly twist did in Part I, at least not for me.

[Frost]

Originally posted by Holografix:

how many more long chatgpt threads from people who didn't understand TLOU2 are we going to get?

i don't have anymore jesters so i can't seed this farm.

You mean Joel didn't die?
Joel didn't stand in the middle of the armed group he didn't know?
You don't play as abbie and have to beat the tar out of Ellie?
Ellie didn't let Abbie go?
Which part of this did I get wrong?

[Holografix]

Originally posted by Frost:

Originally posted by Holografix:

how many more long chatgpt threads from people who didn't understand TLOU2 are we going to get?

i don't have anymore jesters so i can't seed this farm.

You mean Joel didn't die?
Joel didn't stand in the middle of the armed group he didn't know?
You don't play as abbie and have to beat the tar out of Ellie?
Ellie didn't let Abbie go?
Which part of this did I get wrong?

if your long comment isn't chatgpt then:

- you say the game is bad because you didn't like it. that's lazy.
- you say the game has a horrible story because you didn't believe the motivations of the characters. i think that's on you, not the game.
- the overall arc of the narrative is buttressed by the sinew of character motivations. TLOU2 is not realism or neo-realism, the characters are in service of narrative.

i disliked joel in 1, thought he was a liar and self-centered, so i wasn't surprised by what happened to him. ellie is not an innocent ingenue, and her arc towards pointless revenge makes sense. ellie letting abby go, is ellie's decision not the player's. and that's something people don't understand. ellie is not us, in the same way that venom snake in mgsv is not us. the character turns away from player control to make their own decisions in line with their own motivations.

you can play the game pure stealth and avoidance to get your kill count to only necessary, so the whole 'ellie massacres therefore her last decision makes no sense' doesn't work.

[Frost]

No, I point out specific facts of why the game is bad - not "well I don't like it, so it's bad".

The story is horrible because the writers have the characters violate their own character arcs, not because I don't "believe them"

Characters are not serving a narrative if the characters contradict themselves and their own narrative to service a writer's overall narrative. You be consistent with your characters and the story you pretend is coming. Surprises should not break characters into suddenly something very different that violates their own story up until then.

I thought the ending in 1 was more than a bit iffy in that Joel suddenly absolutely turns into a deceptive liar, deceiving Ellie rather than telling her they were going to kiLL her and he stopped them, how Ellie never said anything about going to her death, and also not really knowing it would create a cure. He should have told her the truth immediately when she woke up.

But then takes her in as a daughter even though He treated her like garbage w/ that deception when it's clear she really, really needed to know the truth and had asked again. So that one thing did not sit well with me and seemed to be bad writing. But they seemed to turn that into a story element for part 2, but then trashed THAT in a great many ways.

Just like the faults in 2 that I point out, that was, as you seem to have noticed with Joel in part 1, contrived and contrary to character - a.k.a. horrible writing.

Ellie doesn't have to be us. But when the writers throw out who THEY said she was the entire story to then pretend she's now something completely contrary to what THEY said she was (like they did with Joel at the end with 1), that's a horrible story - horrible writing.

As another example:
If you watched 8 seasons of Game of Thrones (I've seen about 5% of it through clips) where suddenly they throw out how one character was out to free slaves and protect women and children to instead in one episode is now about slaughter slaves and women and children, that, too = horrible writing that ruins a story. They violated their OWN character writing.

Stealth or not, Ellie will kill anyone she has to that has nothing to do with it (which of course given the story of her character makes sense) to get to Abbie. That is consistent with who they made Ellie so far.

But then the writer(s) throw all that out and decide Ellie would rather let Abby go, the one that put a golf club through Joel's skull while she was forced to watch, begging her not to do it, and kills Jesse (that shes seems to have completely forgot about - not a WORD was said of his death), that's bad writing - a horrible story.

As another example:
It's like Lord of the Rings: the Fellowship (1st movie of the 3). In the mines of moria, the writers decide to pretend the characters decide they can't do the quest, bury the ring somewhere, go back to Rivendell, roll credits. That, too would be bad writing - horrible story.

[Holografix]

Originally posted by Frost:

The story is horrible because the writers have the characters violate their own character arcs, not because I don't "believe them"

no. the writers don't. u think they do because u don't understand the story.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by Holografix:

Originally posted by Frost:

The story is horrible because the writers have the characters violate their own character arcs, not because I don't "believe them"

no. the writers don't. u think they do because u don't understand the story.

They kind of do, though, even if I wouldn't call the story "horrible." What do you think of my point above?

https://steamcommunity.com/app/2531310/discussions/0/601904795201058217/?tscn=1747599517#c601904795201065353

[Holografix]

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

Originally posted by Holografix:

no. the writers don't. u think they do because u don't understand the story.

They kind of do, though, even if I wouldn't call the story "horrible." What do you think of my point above?

https://steamcommunity.com/app/2531310/discussions/0/601904795201058217/?tscn=1747599517#c601904795201065353

i didn't like it (your point).

joel gets soft over his love for ellie. ellie toughens up as she grows up. the flashbacks in TLOU2 show joel's and ellie's change. joel opening up to his brother, confessing the truth, makes sense because the guilt of his lie to ellie haunts him, and haunts his relationship with her.