Matter generator

[fireboon269]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Matter Generator REALLY needs to be reworked in how you acquire it. I've had a few runs so far, and without fail have used this upgrade every single time simply because when used well, it seems so much better than any other option. I'm regularly maxing out the upgrades for all buildings using this by the end of a run which feels much better than getting a new cool mechanic or building that i'd then have to use my precious resources to upgrade after.

the issue here is that it feels like a "bad" decision to NOT take this upgrade in the current game even though I want to use other upgrades, simply because they seem to not be as good as upgrade spamming my basic lineup.

the only fixes I can think of for this is to give a minor boost in resource gains after mission to nerf the MG, to go with some upgrades between rounds like many other rogue likes do, or to extend the run so that there are more opportunities to unlock more items since currently i'm only able to get these new items after the mid boss halfway through a run.

just wanted to throw this out there and see what other people thought about this balance?

[Five Head Games]

"to go with some upgrades between rounds like many other rogue likes do"
Do you really prefer this way? When you have some sort of meta progression to grind and to make the game easier?
I wonder if people actually want the game to expand that way. I've seen multiple negative reviews saying "you start every time from scratch". But that's the nature of roguelikes.

[fireboon269]

Originally posted by Five Head Games:

"to go with some upgrades between rounds like many other rogue likes do"
Do you really prefer this way? When you have some sort of meta progression to grind and to make the game easier?
I wonder if people actually want the game to expand that way. I've seen multiple negative reviews saying "you start every time from scratch". But that's the nature of roguelikes.

in my personal opinion, I feel it depends on the game and its balance. I do like this system to give an edge between rounds in some way, either by earning points, or fulfilling conditions to get a new starting gear, or to give a minor boost in stats like giving a +1 to base power production as an upgrade.

Personally I wouldn't take the mentioned negative reviews too seriously if that is all they say as most people don't even know what a roguelike is or how to properly play them. these issues would likely be resolved by widening game content as you mention in another post.

my suggestion would likely fall into something like Vampire Survivors or Inscryption in how it's handled. the former provides minor boosts to stats that can help you out or make it easier for newer players. the latter has more hidden unlocks that you can potentially find through game-play that can add content to future runs (Maybe something like using only coils on a defense mission to unlock a starting artifact to buff or change coils in some way, and giving a limited number of starting artifacts to build your run with.)

TLDR: the game is fun, but feels like a lot of runs will play the same currently even with the randomized artifacts. widening the content such as starting factions, maybe artifacts to buff or change things, difficulty modifiers and conditional upgrades and unlocks are potential ways it could be done in the future, though it would all depends on the game vision and balance. changing too much or making things too easy would also probably be bad for the community the game already has.

[General High Ping]

Played quite a few rounds myself to completion.
Some form of meta progression would be nice, even if its just an upgrade tree of minor buffs, leaving the artefacts you collect and upgrades being what gives you a real punch.
Each time i completed a successful run i was a bit disappointed that all i'd really achieved was unlocking a new loadout.
Part of the fun of rougelikes i've played has been that meta progression, the work put in to get a tiny bit stronger, to give you the edge to beat that boss and move on a phase etc etc.
Theres a "reward for time invested" element currently missing in my view.
Last thing i need to do is unlock the teleporter type, so in one more playthrough i've got nothing really left to do...

[fireboon269]

yeah, i'd agree with that. the second issue I see currently is that the gameplay is fun and somewhat challenging, but with the limited selection will likely push players into meta strats and then it's hard to break out of that since most people won't want to play "worse" after getting better at the game and trying new things which would be a good part of the fun of the game.

[Five Head Games]

Interesting. I always thought that meta progression in roguelikes is the worst part. It just kills the fun.
If the game is designed too hard so you need to grind - how is it fun?
If the game is beatable without meta progression - why would you want it to become easier?
But I guess it's just a genre preference.

[fireboon269]

personally I think a lot of the roguelikes recently that get very popular nail the sweet spot on this issue. the meta progression is there which makes it more accessible to newer and low skill players, while the depth of the game is still difficult or hard to synergize so the meta progression isn't just a win option but just an edge the player has.

I'd again reference Vampire Survivors on this as there are many upgrades you can buy between rounds, though most may be something like 5% pickup range, starting with .1% hp regen, etc... so the player has an edge without making the game easy.

the biggest think I think for roguelikes now is they have to be easy enough for new/low skilled players to get into the game, while having enough content/difficulty that long time/high skill players have something to do, which is usually where achievements and challenges come in, even more so if there are items or mechanics or some form of unlock-able behind difficult conditions. once more referencing VS for this, in having to go to very specific parts of a seemingly infinite map to meet a condition, or holding a certain weapon at a certain place at a certain time.

I do personally feel like challenges or achievements in some form would be a good addition here to give the players something to do as just trying to unlock a ton of random artifacts will likely become confusing/tedious the further along you get with it. not to mention I believe I saw they numbered in the hundreds? so if we can get 20 a run, that would be a LOT of runs given the % appearance rate of a "new" artifact will only go exponentially lower.

[Five Head Games]

Understandable, this is really about preferences.
Personally, I didn't get the VS fun, although it is very good in many parts. Also, I absolutely didn't enjoy Rogue Tower, which is very popular, and also tower defense.
However my favorite games are like StS, RoR2, Darkest Dungeon, and also Dome Keeper from recent, and they all have zero meta progression. You just learn to get better.

But your point about being better to new players is great, I think it's more of a design problem than a genre.

Yes, the last achievement is 100 artifacts. You can "see" about 40 in one run, so that's quite manageable. Also, it encourages you to try new artifacts you didn't have before.

[Berto]

It would also be great to look up all the towers, factions, upgrade paths outside of being in an active game. I'm requesting this because I forget what the Matter Generator is, and this means I need to go into a game, find out which faction (if that's relevant) or kill the first boss and hopefully it is one of the 3 choices offered to me before I can even look up the tower.

[Five Head Games]

Originally posted by Berto:

It would also be great to look up all the towers, factions, upgrade paths outside of being in an active game. I'm requesting this because I forget what the Matter Generator is, and this means I need to go into a game, find out which faction (if that's relevant) or kill the first boss and hopefully it is one of the 3 choices offered to me before I can even look up the tower.

I was thinking about it, some kind of compendium with all enemies, buildings, upgrades. But it is low in priority, first I want to try to fix the gameplay and difficulty to stop getting negative feedback.

[fireboon269]

I just looked through the negative reviews and they mostly seem to boil down to a few key points brought up in this and the difficulty thread.

Repetitive: most of the runs play out the same mechanically or strategically.
Meta: at high difficulties, due to enemy spawn speed, number and HP meta builds and strats feel like the only viable gameplay method.
difficulty: falls into the prior point at higher levels, people feel like there's few "correct" ways to play you get funneled into to win.

I know people brought up various solutions that would help with this such as the meta progression or unlockables, but it seems like the key improvement would be widening the content available at the start.

referencing Inscryption here again, part of the fun is that you start with very little but gain NEW tools over time that will change or refine how you handle the run. currently we start off with just about all of our tools and the main change is in upgrades and artifacts. if we had a bigger variety of buildings to unlock that would probably make a difference here. maybe it could be a random reward like artifacts are so you can choose between them during a run based on what you need?

going back to Domekeeper you brought up, this is another good example here since the unlocks there change your entire play-style for the run. currently I just ignore most of the artifacts as they give a minor boost, and even the ones that are better and synergize with me only have me lean into a style rather than adapt to use them.

only other suggestion I have is if you want to experiment with things to receive feedback, could try to implement some of these changes in a small way and use an experimental beta branch to get feedback on what works or doesn't work?

[Berto]

Originally posted by fireboon269:

I just looked through the negative reviews and they mostly seem to boil down to a few key points brought up in this and the difficulty thread.

Repetitive: most of the runs play out the same mechanically or strategically.
Meta: at high difficulties, due to enemy spawn speed, number and HP meta builds and strats feel like the only viable gameplay method.
difficulty: falls into the prior point at higher levels, people feel like there's few "correct" ways to play you get funneled into to win.

I know people brought up various solutions that would help with this such as the meta progression or unlockables, but it seems like the key improvement would be widening the content available at the start.

referencing Inscryption here again, part of the fun is that you start with very little but gain NEW tools over time that will change or refine how you handle the run. currently we start off with just about all of our tools and the main change is in upgrades and artifacts. if we had a bigger variety of buildings to unlock that would probably make a difference here. maybe it could be a random reward like artifacts are so you can choose between them during a run based on what you need?

going back to Domekeeper you brought up, this is another good example here since the unlocks there change your entire play-style for the run. currently I just ignore most of the artifacts as they give a minor boost, and even the ones that are better and synergize with me only have me lean into a style rather than adapt to use them.

only other suggestion I have is if you want to experiment with things to receive feedback, could try to implement some of these changes in a small way and use an experimental beta branch to get feedback on what works or doesn't work?

Exactly.

I know my strat, I'm going to play that strat every time. Maybe my strat will change at the last 2 difficulties, but I play what I play. While the novelty of the game is still there for me, I see replay-ability (the point of these rogue games) dropping FAST. 3rd Act or something after Act 2 is big.

Here's a first-not-best idea, start with less towers (1, 2, and 4?), but the orange/white resource gain is higher, and is also needed to unlock towers. We can purchase those towers with variable costs with those orange/white resources. There's a number of ways to approach this.... maybe there's a number of slots only available, or things are locked to a specific slot to avoid balance issues.... who knows....

As I'm playing more, the end of the game being Act 2 is really starting to feel like a major issue needing to be addressed.

I cannot speak to the difficulty, I will play as hard as what I find fun for now.

[cornichonstyle]

Originally posted by Five Head Games:

Yes, the last achievement is 100 artifacts . You can "see" about 40 in one run, so that's quite manageable. Also, it encourages you to try new artifacts you didn't have before.

About the artifacts, just a small QA improvement, it would be really useful to be able to access the collection in the Esc menu, sometimes I forget if I've already chosen an artifact or not.

By the way, I was also thinking about the possibility of swapping orange and white resources, even for a high price (like 4 orange for 1 white), I had a run where I ended up with a lot of orange resources because I prioritized artifacts and had nothing to do with them.

Another small point, I may not use it well but I find that the teleport station isn't really useful apart from a few rare moments when you're under pressure, but in general radar station that give more resources really feel more versatile and overall more useful.

But apart from that, I had a really good time on the game, I hear the critics about the difficulty but I think it's precisely this difficulty that encourages you to play again to beat the game. Even if a little more variety would be nice (new ship, artifacts, station, etc.).

Good job anyway

[fireboon269]

Originally posted by cornichonstyle:

Originally posted by Five Head Games:

Yes, the last achievement is 100 artifacts . You can "see" about 40 in one run, so that's quite manageable. Also, it encourages you to try new artifacts you didn't have before.

About the artifacts, just a small QA improvement, it would be really useful to be able to access the collection in the Esc menu, sometimes I forget if I've already chosen an artifact or not.

By the way, I was also thinking about the possibility of swapping orange and white resources, even for a high price (like 4 orange for 1 white), I had a run where I ended up with a lot of orange resources because I prioritized artifacts and had nothing to do with them.

Another small point, I may not use it well but I find that the teleport station isn't really useful apart from a few rare moments when you're under pressure, but in general radar station that give more resources really feel more versatile and overall more useful.

But apart from that, I had a really good time on the game, I hear the critics about the difficulty but I think it's precisely this difficulty that encourages you to play again to beat the game. Even if a little more variety would be nice (new ship, artifacts, station, etc.).

Good job anyway

I believe dev mentioned in a different thread that there should be a small light or some sort of notification on artifacts we've picked up in prior runs, so we should have a way of seeing this currently, though it can be hard to tell without already knowing this.

as for the teleport station, I agree with this and was thinking of posting this too. it's main use feels like it would be early in a mission where time is really tight, however due to the cost you'd be unable to use it at those times and so by the time you could mainly use this to speed up building, you'd already have everything set up.

it may be better to remove the cost from the TP station instead and make it so it can't be used until fully cooled down. it takes quite some time to begin with so can't be spammed until you fully upgrade it so may work better as it's far too weak compared to the flat reduction of the radar station.

that said, maybe there are artifacts which can boost the TP station? haven't played that much with it yet honestly so not sure.

[Five Head Games]

Originally posted by cornichonstyle:

Originally posted by Five Head Games:

Yes, the last achievement is 100 artifacts . You can "see" about 40 in one run, so that's quite manageable. Also, it encourages you to try new artifacts you didn't have before.

About the artifacts, just a small QA improvement, it would be really useful to be able to access the collection in the Esc menu, sometimes I forget if I've already chosen an artifact or not.

By the way, I was also thinking about the possibility of swapping orange and white resources, even for a high price (like 4 orange for 1 white), I had a run where I ended up with a lot of orange resources because I prioritized artifacts and had nothing to do with them.

Another small point, I may not use it well but I find that the teleport station isn't really useful apart from a few rare moments when you're under pressure, but in general radar station that give more resources really feel more versatile and overall more useful.

But apart from that, I had a really good time on the game, I hear the critics about the difficulty but I think it's precisely this difficulty that encourages you to play again to beat the game. Even if a little more variety would be nice (new ship, artifacts, station, etc.).

Good job anyway

Hey, thank you so much for this feedback! It's really refreshing to hear that with the amount of negative ones I'm currently getting :)

Yes, the difficulty was like that from the start because it encourages experimentation and replayability, and all difficulties were 100% winnable from the release. But anyways..

As was mentioned below, there is a small green dot in the top right corner in the artifacts tooltips, which means it's something you didn't discover. I understand that it is not that obvious, I want to change it, but can't replace it with the text quickly as the game supports 9 languages.

I tested the resources exchange event at some point, but decided not to, as that removes interesting decisions when taking missions. Currently, you need to plan what resources and where you should get for the upgrades you desire. But thanks for the feedback, I'll keep that in mind.

About the teleport station. It is currently overpowered, trust me XD. The tempo it can give you from the start can be very strong. Try to experiment with it, like boosting generators at the beginning, or taking 1 more supplies to then boost a rocket launcher or mortar.

[fireboon269]

my main issue with it currently is just the early cost for the teleporter. as you say, using a generator boost to start with would be a good advantage, however i'd then not have a defense set up if I use that first, and it would still be 50%-100% the cost of that when there is precious little income at the start of the round. without a lot of playtesting with it, which can be rather hard since much a run is devoted to building a foundation so we don't die rather than being able to experiment with things.

as I say this, another good option could just be a "free play" mode where you can't unlock anything, but you can use any building or artifacts up to a limit that you've unlocked in the main game. this may help players to experiment more without the pressure of needing to survive a run limiting what they can choose? this may be a good sort of tutorial for newer players to get used to the game and how to play and strategize, or to test out builds and ideas in an ideal setting to see if it's viable?