Do PLAYERS have to pay or just the Game Master?

[Smugass Braixen-Chan]

The few applications of this type I looked at required the players to pay as much as the DM (Which is completely $&#*ing rediculous because they litteraly don't even do anything). Our group consists of over half a dozen people, only half of which are regularly in a game.

So my question is whether it is viable for players to join games just using the demo?

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Oh and while we're on the subject, is it possible to mod ponies into it...? Don't give me that look! My players refuse to do anything that doesn't involve colourful animals...

[BlueValkyrie]

Originalmente postado por Pinkamena Diane Pyro:

But they're not paying for a seat in a theater; they're paying for a video-game, one in which they won't actually be doing anything. I'm pretty sure a license to stare at a game board isn't worth the asking price. What they're paying for is GMing tools, and only 3 of us even GM.

You're not stareing at a game board doing nothing, you're creating characters, rolling dice, moving your mini around on the map, making secret rolls and messages that only the DM can see when you want to palm that amulet off your friend *cough*. The DM is just given more tools to manipulate what the players see, taking control of NPC's for dialog, revealing or hiding enemies or masking locations on the map. Basically everything you normally do on a gaming table only virtural.

[damned]

We must be talking about 2 different products then... my players play...

Originalmente postado por Pinkamena Diane Pyro:

But they're not paying for a seat in a theater; they're paying for a video-game, one in which they won't actually be doing anything. I'm pretty sure a license to stare at a game board isn't worth the asking price. What they're paying for is GMing tools, and only 3 of us even GM.

[Dr0W]

As a DM this is what I feel: "I do most of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ work, all you guys have to do is pay for the software we're going to play with."
I gave them the choice of buying Player Licenses or giving me an upgrade to Ultimate. Got the second one.

IMHO DM's version should cost less than player's. Something like $20 for a version that only let's you be the DM and $35 for a version that let's you DM AND play. This is what I think it's fair, but not what would work. As you can see, people complain that they have to pay to... play.

[Smugass Braixen-Chan]

Originalmente postado por Dr0W:

As a DM this is what I feel: "I do most of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ work, all you guys have to do is pay for the software we're going to play with."
I gave them the choice of buying Player Licenses or giving me an upgrade to Ultimate. Got the second one.

IMHO DM's version should cost less than player's. Something like $20 for a version that only let's you be the DM and $35 for a version that let's you DM AND play. This is what I think it's fair, but not what would work. As you can see, people complain that they have to pay to... play.

Meanwhile on my end "I have to do all the work AND pay for everybody else's copy!"

Look. If you have 5 players in a D&D group, you don't need to buy the D&D core rulebooks 5 times. Why should this be any different? Oh right, because it's online and they can use that as an excuse to make EVERYBODY pay, and that's why so many games only let you play multiplayer online these days.

Also wouldn't it make more sense to have the DM version cost more?

Finally, I'm ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sick of this culture of just accepting being ripped off, giving retarded reasons why being ripped off is perfectly reasonable, and treating anybody who does not accept being ripped off like an idiot. I guess you would find it perfectly reasonable if I purchased a 4-player Wii-U game, but had to pay 4 times the price if I wanted to bring 3 of my friends over to play it. 1 purchase per person, right?

[Trenloe]

Originalmente postado por Pinkamena Diane Pyro:

Look. If you have 5 players in a D&D group, you don't need to buy the D&D core rulebooks 5 times. Why should this be any different? Oh right, because it's online and they can use that as an excuse to make EVERYBODY pay, and that's why so many games only let you play multiplayer online these days.

No one is paying multiple times for the rules. If you decide to run a game using a commercial ruleset (not one of the rulesets provided with Fantasy Grounds for FREE) then only the GM has to buy the ruleset (Savage Worlds, Castles and Crusades, Rolemaster, Call of Cthulhu, etc.).

As I mentioned above: "You're paying for a "play in an interactive RPG game with my friends anywhere in the world without leaving my comfy chair" license. It's great fun whether you're a player or a GM - some people prefer being GMs, some people prefer being players. It's the same [one off] cost per participant." But, hey, if you want to be the GM that funds all of the players gaming then buy the ultimate licence - you have the option.

[Trenloe]

Originalmente postado por Pinkamena Diane Pyro:

Finally, I'm ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sick of this culture of just accepting being ripped off, giving retarded reasons why being ripped off is perfectly reasonable, and treating anybody who does not accept being ripped off like a moron. I guess you would find it perfectly reasonable if, I purchased a 4-player Wii-U game, but had to pay 4 times the price if I wanted to bring 3 of my friends over to play it. 1 purchase per person, right?

If you want to have 4 friends come round to your house and play Fantasy Grounds on the same computer then you can do that with just one license.

The cost of each additional player is because they have their own copy of the software, installed on a completely separate computer - they can use it to connect to multiple different GMs to play games, they can run games themselves for other players, they can run it by themselves if they want to.

This software is a mature product that has been around for 9 years. It costs a lot of money to support, maintain and update the system. No one has ever been charged for upgrades over the years - some of which have been significant. It is a one off fee for each participant - no hidden costs, no subscription fees, free upgrades and rapid support (you've seen how fast the developers have been posting on these forums). Now, perhaps we have completely different views on how much all of this should cost, but IMHO this is not being ripped off.

And I hope you don't think these perfectly reasonable reasons are "re-tar-ded". (I had to "spell" it that way otherwise it gets blocked) :)

[Smugass Braixen-Chan]

Originalmente postado por Trenloe:

As I mentioned above: "You're paying for a "play in an interactive RPG game with my friends anywhere in the world without leaving my comfy chair" license.

Skype + Google Spreadsheet please! I don't find what this application can do that the above can not for the player is really worth $30, ESPECIALLY when they ARE in fact paying for the D&D rule-sets as part of the cost of the application. And this isn't like Neverwinter Nights where it is an actual GAME, this is just a fancy interface that aids you in doing something you can already do for free.

[Trenloe]

Originalmente postado por Pinkamena Diane Pyro:

Skype + Google Spreadsheet please! I don't find what this application can do that the above can not for the player is really worth $30, ESPECIALLY when they ARE in fact paying for the D&D rule-sets as part of the cost of the application. And this isn't like Neverwinter Nights where it is an actual GAME, this is just a fancy interface that aids you in doing something you can already do for free.

Fair enough - I'm finished trying to convince you with resonable arguments. I'm sure you'll have a great time playing your games that way - a lot of people do.

You're going to miss all of the nice functionality that FG provides and makes the game more about the playing than anything else and so makes it more fun for all involved. Missing that will be your loss, not ours. Enjoy!

[Smugass Braixen-Chan]

Originalmente postado por Trenloe:

Fair enough - I'm finished trying to convince you with resonable arguments. I'm sure you'll have a great time playing your games that way - a lot of people do.

You're going to miss all of the nice functionality that FG provides and makes the game more about the playing than anything else and so makes it more fun for all involved. Missing that will be your loss, not ours. Enjoy!

It'll be my loss whether I like it or not if I can't convince my friend to pay for the 4 pack rather than one copy. Yknow it would take me over 2 months to save up for ultimate if I tried to myself? Believe it or not, not everybody can afford to pay hundreds of dollars for minor conveniance.

[damned]

@Pinkamena Diane Pyro - not every game or application is for everyone. this ones not for you - lets all move on while we are still friends. :)

[Smugass Braixen-Chan]

Just to round up this discussion, I'm going to post snippets of what my friends had to say about Fantasy Grounds by running the demo.

Applejack: I can't exactly say this is worth 40 or even 30 dollars so far
a lot of it is just fancied-up note pads
with a die-roller glued onto it
no, yes, [sic?] the character sheet is quite nice. It has tabs and everything for you to organize your character (combat, skills, abilities, inventory, etc)
but, again, its just a fancied-up document. it only automates a few basic stats
hell, it doesn't even have racial modifiers built-in - you'll have to calculate those things yourself
now the skill sheet is nice - keeps track of all your skills with modifiers (even your untrained skills)...but the pathfinder sheet doesn't seem to have any of the Knowledge skills (or at least that I can find)

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Applejack: and while it provide the rule sets, you still have to provide your own source books
want feats? You gotta type those in yourself and apply those bonuses on your own accord
which is fine if you want custom feats and such, but I'd like to be able to just, say, select power attack and see how it alters my attack damage, rather than having to crunch those numbers on my own
ultimately, for 30 bucks, I don't think this program is going to solve any of the problems we have...
and since the combat doesn't seem to be much automated beyond having a dice roller attached to it...
and custom maps? Yeah, I recall Chao [me] commenting that roll20 seemed to be just MS paint. Guess what Fantasy Grounds is (unless you actually know how to create the custom map files)

Snowflake: So it's like Angry Birds in that it's nothing someone who trawls the Internet (specifically the flash game Crush the Castle in AB's case) hasn't seen before
And unlike Angry Birds, instead of being a cheap, novelty smartphone app, this is a bloated $40 computer program.

Applejack: 'bloated'
its a 4MB file

Snowflake: Yeah, that... does sound like a bit of a ripoff...

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Applejack: the player has to tell what his attack is, manually select a dice, roll it, you tell him whether it hits or not, then he has to roll the damage
And casting a spell? Again, FG has the rules but it doesn't have any of the source material so you better have a reference source on hand

Chaomii: ...

Applejack: But if you ant to cast meteor, you need to put the information in on what that spell does yourself

Chaomii: ...
Yknow what...
... ♥♥♥♥ this ♥♥♥♥

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Quite frankly, I SERIOUSLY hope that last bit only happened because she was running the demo.

[damned]

so now youre just trolling.
you post that the players dont even do anything and now suddenly your players know all sorts of stuff and are testing and trying stuff that would require them to actually be real players... real players doing stuff, just what they werent doing before.
other brand new users of the software that found it on steam the same way you did are automating all sorts of actions in fantasy grounds, finding the good bits, the weak bits, providing constructive feedback, asking intelligent questions, enjoying themselves.
one thing we do know by now - this software is probably not for you - so save yourself some time and move on - no harm no foul. if you do want to use the software say so and ask for some help with the things you dont get. does fantasy grounds solve all the gm/gamers problems? no. does it have everything that everyone wants? no. does it automate everything? no. it does do more than any other table top Ive seen - bar the dynamic lighting - and price for features its great value.
we are here to help - not to engage in pretend fights with you about how this app is so wonder ful and that one is so bad and what is this *** of **** anyway. lifes too short. engage for real or move on.

[Sledgehammer]

Are player handbooks etc in the game or do you need to own physical copies?

[damned]

depends on the ruleset.
pathfinder and 3.5 core rulebooks are included and these rulesets are included in the base product
4e and 5e (still in dev) and numenera rulesets are in base product but no rulebooks - none available to purchase as DLC for licensing so you need your own source material and copy what you need in - or you can use a parsing tool (written by community members) with your DI account for 4e and soon 5e.
for rulesets like Call of Cthulhu, Castles&Crusades, Mutants&Masterminds, Savage Worlds, Rolemaster Classic these are DLC products including ruleset and content - priced from about $10-20.
for other rulesets like Trail of Cthulhu or Star Wars: Edge of the Empire, World of Darkness etc - these are community rulesets and are free but there is no licensed content you have to enter your own (i think ToC content will be released separately and be priced same as PDF pricing).
so the short answer is: depends... :)

[Smugass Braixen-Chan]

Well I WOULD like to use it, but AJ refused to get it on the above grounds, and if it wasn't so pricey on the basis that each and every player needs a copy regardless of whether they are DMing or not, it wouldn't be a problem.

$30-40 per DM is ok. $100+ just so that not even half our group can join in is NOT ok.