Is this a localisation issue? What on earth.... Lutfi/Gloria bad(?) ending

[Aerensiniac]

Sorry, first of all: Spoilers
Second: I just need to vent a bit cause that ending knee capped me

Okay, it was sure as heck a memorable ending but after spending a few hours thinking about it, i think its for all the bad reasons.
You spend a lot of time siding with Lutfi, drinking together, encouraging him, etc etc etc you genuinely end up being a support for him which is shown at the very end when he pulls a sword on you just to desperately keep you from ending yourself by helping Gloria.

And the game keeps over and over and over and over asking whether or not you want to put down your sword as he begs you to stop, which then culminates in your character stabbing him through the heart and basically shrugging like "i made a promise to Gloria"

What on earth... is this a localisation issue? Did something get translated the wrong way?
I watched the main character just go 95% in a certain direction emotionally, psychologically, in terms of intent and what not, and then in the last minute turn a sociopath Joker and for zero reason kill the dude he supported for half the playthrough then not give a damn about it.

Seriously, i was expecting only the "lololol get rekt" line of text to pop up, it was so jarring and out of line, like a shait attempt at trolling.

What on earth did i just witness?
If he stabbed Lutfi as an accident why on earth was it not shown that he didnt intend it?
If he stabbed him intentionally, then what on earth... did the DarkLight mind control the MC? What was this ending?

This might have passed as a story in a book, but you dont do this kind of stuff in a game. It destroys player agency and immersion.
Its spending hours going from a to b, from b to c, from c to d just so at the end of the alphabet you get a "lol the answer was 42 all along, not even a letter".

Can anyone shine some light on this?
Im not even the kind of dude that gets rilled up by a story, but that ending genuinely screwed with my head. If i want to help gloria, it does not mean i need to off the dude i spent half the game supporting.

[TigerNightmare]

This is the first ending I got and I think it's crystal clear. Lutfi reveals his grand plan, which is to throw Gloria under the bus because he has an extreme distrust of foreigners, believing only he is fit to rule Iria, even though his manipulations make him a complete hypocrite. If you try to save Gloria, you disagree with him. You reject his terrible plan. He tries to stop you not only because the plan could be exposed if you survive, but because he genuinely cares for you. Lutfi/the game prompts you many, many times to stop fighting him, and only when it says to fight him with all your might do you end up killing him. He would rather die than let you go. The Darklight didn't control him, you did. You did this. You chose this. You're fighting with swords, not pool noodles, what did you expect?

If you wanted to help Gloria, you should have made different decisions earlier. Which is the path I'm currently doing.

[Dragnier]

There are 3 different endings for the Union path: Side with Lutfi, Sacrifice yourself trying to save Gloria, and defeat Auguste (thus saving Gloria)
You will need to play it again to get the other two endings. The beacons will help you to start your next run easier.

[Halko]

Ya this has nothing to do with translation it is just the story. I mean if you dont like how the obsessive manipulative backstabber stabs people in the back and try to stop him he kinda refuses to back down on what he has devoted his entire life to up until that point. Its just who he is. The guy is willing to throw anyone and everyone under the bus in order to feed his hero complex so if you try to go against that of course he is going to take it poorly. It also doesnt destroy immersion it just means you didnt understand his character. The guy would literally burn the country and everyone in it to the ground as long as he could stand over the rubble and claim he "saved" it.

Honestly though a lot of the complaints about "player agency" and the like are just unrealistic expectations anyway. I mean all of the "choices matter" games get panned for it because they limit what the player can do and like no ♥♥♥♥ of COURSE they limit what the player can do. Nobody has the time or resources to make a game with true player agency. Like you cant just get mad when stuff you dont like happens because it was somehow "forced" on you and you didnt like the outcome. Nobody can make 100 different endings for a game for every minor little event or choice that could be made.

Also can we not just blame translations for everything? People keep running around acting like translators are somehow braindead morons that cant do their jobs or some kind of evil conspirator out to brainwash people and its just really annoying.

[Aerensiniac]

Originally posted by Halko:

Ya this has nothing to do with translation it is just the story. I mean if you dont like how the obsessive manipulative backstabber stabs people in the back and try to stop him he kinda refuses to back down on what he has devoted his entire life to up until that point.

That is not how the scene or the story reads.
That scene had nothing to do with being a manipulative backstabber.
The dude was discarded his entire life and found a genuine friend in you which he desperately tried to cling to, to the point of letting go of every and any manipulation, trying to keep you from offing yourself by force out of sheer despair.

Donno guys. all three of you seem to have missed most of the nuance in the story, and sorry but player agency being an unrealistic expectation?
In what world?
Maybe you grew up in 2024 where developers hate their players and do not make content for them, but to spite them. Im a wee bit older than what is going down currently in the world. I grew up in normalcy where game designers were building worlds and telling stories FOR players.

The outcome of that ending does not fit the story, the situation or the MC's personality. The scene is simply jarring as f. That was my point.
They constructed an end table just for it turn into a chair during the last 20 seconds.

[TigerNightmare]

Originally posted by Aerensiniac:

Originally posted by Halko:

Ya this has nothing to do with translation it is just the story. I mean if you dont like how the obsessive manipulative backstabber stabs people in the back and try to stop him he kinda refuses to back down on what he has devoted his entire life to up until that point.

That is not how the scene or the story reads.
That scene had nothing to do with being a manipulative backstabber.
The dude was discarded his entire life and found a genuine friend in you which he desperately tried to cling to, to the point of letting go of every and any manipulation, trying to keep you from offing yourself by force out of sheer despair.

Donno guys. all three of you seem to have missed most of the nuance in the story, and sorry but player agency being an unrealistic expectation?
In what world?
Maybe you grew up in 2024 where developers hate their players and do not make content for them, but to spite them. Im a wee bit older than what is going down currently in the world. I grew up in normalcy where game designers were building worlds and telling stories FOR players.

The outcome of that ending does not fit the story, the situation or the MC's personality. The scene is simply jarring as f. That was my point.
They constructed an end table just for it turn into a chair during the last 20 seconds.

Sorry dude, but you're not nearly as smart or media literate as you think you are. Lutfi is a scumbag and the hints were all there. He tells you to withhold the truth and hinder Gloria's investigation. He has a grand plan he does not share with you, a classic, "Trust me, bro." He says that you're his only friend. Even when you first meet him, he lies to you. He's a liar. Just because he had a tragic, lonely life, that does not absolve him of his sins. That's nuanced, not him being just one thing.

Even in the banquet event and some Fool's Journey stuff, it's clearly shown that Dantalion cares about him, and it turns out he wasn't even the culprit behind the Waverun City riot, it was Auguste. But Lutfi blames him for everything, even his own problems, when it's obvious that his life turned out the way it did because he's a dishonest, scheming narcissist. I rewatched that scene in the tavern (titled "Harangue" in Destiny Traces/Remembrance/Performance) and when he specifically mentions Vlderians having freedom, NonoWill says nothing with a stern look, and sort of makes a scowling sound. To me, that feels like she recognizes what he's doing, using her people for political theater. He's a politician, stoking the flames of resentment by spewing propaganda disguised as agreeable platitudes.

And no, the types of games you played in your youth in the mid-2000s aren't nearly as flexible as you think they are. There are preset outcomes determined by your choices, period. There can be many branching paths, but you don't ever get to get off the one you put yourself on just because you thought someone or something was different. You get two choices at the end of that path, and while I hate that you have to replay 2/3 of the campaign just to make the other choice, it is still your choice. Die with Gloria in regret, or believe Lutfi's plan will work and let her die. These are the consequences of your choices. The game even encourages you to side with Gloria earlier on to see a different outcome.

[Pandas_of_doom]

unpopular opinion but dantelion does everything he can for his family and the country even though he doesn't understand the power of humanity but he also expects everybody in the game to hate him and want to kill him if it means doing the right thing.

meanwhile lutfi plays the victim blaming all the issues on his older brother while denying everybody's plan to fix the country and falls for the sweet words of auguste while thinking hes the mastermind behind everything even though it was auguste playing lutfi like a dam fiddle.

[Halko]

Originally posted by Aerensiniac:

That is not how the scene or the story reads.

What are you talking about? The ENTIRE plot point of the route is that Lufti is manipulating everyone he is working with for an eventual double cross. The guy is so dead set on his plan that he refuses to accept that maybe he is going to far and that maybe blatantly setting up good decent people to die is probably not a good thing. So much so that instead of doing literally any reasonable action he fights you so hard you are forced to kill him. The guy is out of control. Just like his brother but in a different way.

Originally posted by Pandas_of_doom:

unpopular opinion but dantelion does everything he can for his family and the country even though he doesn't understand the power of humanity but he also expects everybody in the game to hate him and want to kill him if it means doing the right thing.

Danny boy is his own can of worms and is essentially just another flavor of Lufti its just instead of playing the manipulator doing things on the sly he just tells people to their face and blatantly and obviously puts the dagger in their face instead of their back. In many ways thats just worse since in the context of the game hes basically just cosplaying hitler. Genocides and all. Furry people? Not Irian just let them get sold off. Mercenary allies? Disposable. Union? Papal? They all have to die. The only people that should be treated as people are Irian.

I really dont see why people like him. I mean ya he has the whole sob story thing going on but the things the guy does is so absolutely despicable in literally every way you cant make up for it.

[Plantszaza]

Originally posted by Halko:

Danny boy is his own can of worms and is essentially just another flavor of Lufti its just instead of playing the manipulator doing things on the sly he just tells people to their face and blatantly and obviously puts the dagger in their face instead of their back. In many ways thats just worse since in the context of the game hes basically just cosplaying hitler. Genocides and all. Furry people? Not Irian just let them get sold off. Mercenary allies? Disposable. Union? Papal? They all have to die. The only people that should be treated as people are Irian.

I really dont see why people like him. I mean ya he has the whole sob story thing going on but the things the guy does is so absolutely despicable in literally every way you cant make up for it.

I mean yeah, the brothers are two sides of the same coin.

But at least you gotta respect him for secretly supporting his sister by weakening his own force.
The rebellion wouldn't have defeated the King's Army that easy if Dantalion stubbornly cling onto power to the very end.

[Pandas_of_doom]

I mean you are not wrong, dantelion has issues and i mean lots of issues. but it feels like everybody from the royal family is some kinda messed up, atleast when you follow his path for both endings he sorta still choooses his own death so you have to give him respect for that and he did somewhat realize everything he did was more or less all wrong but somehow cant tell the mc and his sister till it was too late.

with lutfi nah its his way or the high way. he pretends like he cares but imo hes just secretly jealous that the king gave his older brother the role of king rather than him and him thinking he can use the enemy to help him with his disputes with dantelion is going to end up biting him and the entire 2 factions/countries in the butt oh and being nice to the mc is all just lies.

so ya dantelion is better atleast he will tell you to your face that you're stupid but lutfi will lie to you that you're smart but you should follow his idea better cuz leave the thinking to him instead till he finds a way to get rid of you after you become useless

[Meowish]

Arguing over translation quality is... well.. kinda pointless, consider how much info could be missed during a Chinese to English translation and how some culture-specific text (like puns) can't be translated directly without "localization", means as long as we are not playing the original Chinese version, we won't be getting the 100% original meanings of the story. I played the Japanese server here on Steam and even then, there's a heavy feeling of awkwardness in the translation. It feels like the author had a Japanese culture in mind, but yet can't ditch the Chinese-ness in his blood when writing a JRPG story and that brought some gaps for those who aren't expecting a Chinese-Japanese hybrid story telling... Especially when translated to English, there's a whooping 40% information loss after "localization". Though modern games had been doing a better job than some of those old anime (that ended up with different story style and almost a different protagonist with different tension and moral after localization...)

But like what others said, and what English gamers have long accepted, as long as you can enjoy the game and the story, it's no big deal for the developers in question. Even when it means they have to remake a new protagonist for the "localization", they will do it for the sake of sales. (eg. Nier has different protagonist in the Western and Eastern version of its game, but the story pans out almost exactly the same and both audience accepted what they see.) And to answer whether or not it's localization causing some of the story to look different, well, the only way to find out is to learn Chinese (Hong Kong Traditional Chinese) and play the Chinese original version imo.

As far as TRPG history goes, there really isn't an "immersive" story telling in these games, so don't expect the story quality to be good. Especially when a game started with Gender choosing, simply means they pan out the story on a generic gender that fits both male and female protagonist, in SoC, the protagonist went missing and isn't really important at all in the story telling (like what Nier:Reincarnation did). Truth is, what most tactic players after is the strategy fun of clearing a difficult stage, and they valuate a TRPG based on that, so a lot of TRPG success without a good story as long as they have good game mechanism and rule set to boost the strategic fun in their games.
The game below for example, it doesn't have fancy story nor does it have fancy mechanism, but it fulfilled its role as a TRPG and thus accepted as is:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/312600/Rime_Berta/

If you are after a good RPG with immersive story, it's best to go for CRPG or WRPG, eg. BG3. Those are what ones can really call, "A good story".

[Aerensiniac]

Originally posted by TigerNightmare:

media literate

Thats exactly as far as i have read your comment.
Not only because you instantly made the far left Californian vocabulary obvious, but also because you think people need "media literacy" training to understand the difference between a healthy person and someone suffering from severe borderline personality disorder.

Both of these facts categorise you as someone nobody should ever talk to, god forbid argue with. Wish you the best.

[TigerNightmare]

Originally posted by Aerensiniac:

Thats exactly as far as i have read your comment.
Not only because you instantly made the far left Californian vocabulary obvious, but also because you think people need "media literacy" training to understand the difference between a healthy person and someone suffering from severe borderline personality disorder.

Both of these facts categorise you as someone nobody should ever talk to, god forbid argue with. Wish you the best.

Well, that's insane. Media literacy is something you have whether you like it or not, it's not something you need per se, but if you're the only one missing the obvious things in a story that everyone else here has been pointing out to you, that means you're bad at looking at any particular piece of art and understanding what you see. You're just telling everyone here you're dumb and can't read.

[Halko]

Originally posted by TigerNightmare:

Originally posted by Aerensiniac:

Thats exactly as far as i have read your comment.
Not only because you instantly made the far left Californian vocabulary obvious, but also because you think people need "media literacy" training to understand the difference between a healthy person and someone suffering from severe borderline personality disorder.

Both of these facts categorise you as someone nobody should ever talk to, god forbid argue with. Wish you the best.

Well, that's insane. Media literacy is something you have whether you like it or not, it's not something you need per se, but if you're the only one missing the obvious things in a story that everyone else here has been pointing out to you, that means you're bad at looking at any particular piece of art and understanding what you see. You're just telling everyone here you're dumb and can't read.

Well you have to remember that we live in the modern age where a large portion of the population cant grasp the basic concept that someone should be able to understand the concept to at least a basic degree and actually put thought into it before talking about it. Any literacy beyond a twitter character limit or a tiktok is just unwarranted and unnecessary. I mean after all its not like you have to understand the concepts being said since you just have to be able to parrot whatever nonsense the grifters spout on social media. You dont need to think about the subject to just repeat that nonsense and that is the entire point.

Whenever someone cries "Muh libruls" and then directly quote Alex Jones or Peterson there isnt a discussion to be had. Those kinds of people just want to be told that them being terrible people who are full of ♥♥♥♥ is in fact the correct way to be and its everyone else who is wrong. Its why instead of actually discussing the content or context of what is going on they simply spout a bunch of nonsense about how """California""" or """woke""" or """deep state""" is secretly undermining the grand vision of the TRUE America. The real funny part of all of it is when you add in all of their beliefs the "true" America is literally an ethnostate where the only people to have any say are straight white christian guys and everyone else are second class citizens.

All of the "localization is bad" arguments and "California politics" arguments are all just in service to discredit anyone that disagrees with them. Its not about discussing WHY they think they are wrong and providing evidence. They just have to shove them into these convenient little prejudiced labels so they can just ignore them out of hand without thinking about what they are saying. Its why whenever someone says literally anything instead of attempting to grasp the concept they pull up their twitter account to check if they have pronouns listed in their bio because that is the real measure of if someone knows what they are talking about. Obviously.

[Aerensiniac]

Originally posted by TigerNightmare:

Well, that's insane. Media literacy is something you have whether you like it or not, it's not something you need per se, but if you're the only one missing the obvious things in a story that everyone else here has been pointing out to you, that means you're bad at looking at any particular piece of art and understanding what you see. You're just telling everyone here you're dumb and can't read.

In the current situation you lot seem to be the ones missing obvious things, and nothing puts more emphasis on this fact than you with the idea that ppl need media literacy to be able to point out baseline traits of a character.

In case you are confused, let me spell it out for you: Media literacy is interpretation.
You need media literacy to understand that Starship Troopers is a satire of the nazis and similar authoritarian societies.
What you do not need media literacy for is to understand that Batman has a code which he refuses to break.

One is a question of interpretation, the other is a fully intended and fleshed out core trait/modus operandi of a character.

So when i tell you that its jarring to see that Batman who has an absolute no kill rule, just casually shoots someone at the end of a comic for literally zero reason, then you tell me that i lack media literacy, i can only shrug and consider you a smartass who (ironically) didnt understand a damn thing.
Not about the story. Not about the character. Not about why its jarring to read.

Originally posted by Halko:

Originally posted by TigerNightmare:

Well, that's insane. Media literacy is something you have whether you like it or not, it's not something you need per se, but if you're the only one missing the obvious things in a story that everyone else here has been pointing out to you, that means you're bad at looking at any particular piece of art and understanding what you see. You're just telling everyone here you're dumb and can't read.

Well you have to remember that we live in the modern age where a large portion of the population cant grasp the basic concept that someone should be able to understand the concept to at least a basic degree and actually put thought into it before talking about it. Any literacy beyond a twitter character limit or a tiktok is just unwarranted and unnecessary. I mean after all its not like you have to understand the concepts being said since you just have to be able to parrot whatever nonsense the grifters spout on social media. You dont need to think about the subject to just repeat that nonsense and that is the entire point.

Whenever someone cries "Muh libruls" and then directly quote Alex Jones or Peterson there isnt a discussion to be had. Those kinds of people just want to be told that them being terrible people who are full of ♥♥♥♥ is in fact the correct way to be and its everyone else who is wrong. Its why instead of actually discussing the content or context of what is going on they simply spout a bunch of nonsense about how """California""" or """woke""" or """deep state""" is secretly undermining the grand vision of the TRUE America. The real funny part of all of it is when you add in all of their beliefs the "true" America is literally an ethnostate where the only people to have any say are straight white christian guys and everyone else are second class citizens.

All of the "localization is bad" arguments and "California politics" arguments are all just in service to discredit anyone that disagrees with them. Its not about discussing WHY they think they are wrong and providing evidence. They just have to shove them into these convenient little prejudiced labels so they can just ignore them out of hand without thinking about what they are saying. Its why whenever someone says literally anything instead of attempting to grasp the concept they pull up their twitter account to check if they have pronouns listed in their bio because that is the real measure of if someone knows what they are talking about. Obviously.

Just for the record: Im not American. Im literally on the other side of the planet, in europe's east block of all things, so im not only as far as i can get from america geographically, but also in terms of values and ideology.

I explained my point about media literacy and how it does not apply.
You meanwhile should probably seek help cause a couple of sentences triggering this level of leftoid ranting is... not gonna lie, spectacular to the point of stereotype.

[Pandas_of_doom]

Localisation and translation is slightly a bit off more or less but overall the story written for lutfi's side in the union is fairly understandable but I will say the character is written at the start from fool's journey story arc into the events leading into spiral of destinies make him a decently fleshed out character with ideals and flaws but even though there are many hints foreshadowing his suspicions in the journal notes the mc writes, lutfi does appear to be "stupid" near the end of the union story arc.

I understand he's trying to use gloria as a scapegoat but some ingame choices that the mc makes should have created an alternate timeline where you somehow convince lutfi its better to save or work with gloria to stop the union from the inside and also save iria but for story plot the ending should still be where lutfi fails and betrayed by auguste and gloria finds out lutfi was in leagues with the corruption and fails to stop auguste and you the mc also fails and all 3 of you die in that ending.

this would cement gloria's good ending to be the better ending overall where you have to fully side with gloria over lutfi instead of siding with lutfi 100% or sideing with lutfi and gloria 50%.

just my opinion

edit: Since the devs plan to release more future content maybe they will add more story arcs/timeline paths for each faction. I do know they plan to add eleman faction sometime in the future.