Most effective ship shape with synergy

[Azirahael]

So, pre-synergy, the 'best' shapes were ones tthat maxed out front or sides, depending on what you had more of.

Now with synergy, there are bonuses for building deep rather than skinny.

Has anyone crunched the numbers and checked to see whether it's better to add another wing, vs getting a synergy bonus for the one wing, for example?

[Azirahael]

After some experimentation, it looks like more=good.

Synergy seems to take some of the sting out of a blocky design, but synergy seems not to do anything to the stat boosts, or at least not much.

thus the more parts you have, the more total bonuses and the more guns, even if they don't get synergy boosts.

That having been said, because of all the weight of parts, your ship is slower, and turns slower

[Prometheus]

From what I've seen a double column or double row is most efficient. There will be one core left over that you can use to get a 3 set in the front or back to preference. You can get 5 large weapons this way with 2 getting 87% bonus and 2 getting over 100% bonus.

[Azirahael]

Originally posted by Promethian:

From what I've seen a double column or double row is most efficient. There will be one core left over that you can use to get a 3 set in the front or back to preference. You can get 5 large weapons this way with 2 getting 87% bonus and 2 getting over 100% bonus.

Not compared to a single column, with a widened nose and tail like a capital "I"

Double the weapons, and double the bonuses.

Went from like 95 threat to 128 threat.
and vastly more dangerous in combat, if slower.

[Antiga]

Sandbox with 21 cores is utterly annoying to come up with a good shape. Always one core too much, or too few. However, I started to love a double collumn of 9 blocks, horizontally. With the leftover 3 cores on the back, one on each side and one in the middle giving my cockpit a 100% synergy. 3 large front, 2 large (and 3 small) back and 2 large wings. Lots of shields n speed, insane frontal firepower, very nice synergy values but the turn rate is abysmal. This is mostly only an issue when turning to pickup blueprints, however.

[Bozobub]

Here' some full and partial synergy 21-core builds. NONE of these are even remotely slow or "porky", by the by (total stats are in the upper-right corner of each screenie =):

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1112827088

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1124794833

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1123465451

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1122611326

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1209567449
(Possibly my most aesthetically pleasing build; it's also rather strong ^^. This is basically Manwue's original idea that I emulated above, flipped 180° for MUCH better performance.)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1218156986
(My current build; a little less pretty than Yin & Yang above, but more maneuverable AND stronger.)

All of these use the same pool of pretty much "perfect" (custom-ordered) 6-star subcores. Most of the weapon modules are also 6-star, except for the Plasmas (3 and 4 stars), except for the top screenie. That said, I did, however, level constantly over that time, so the numbers won't directly compare very well between them =o. Also, If you want to know the loadouts, these are all in the Ship Design sticky, as well, with more detailed descriptions.


Some notes, in no particular order:

• Yes, synergy DOES directly multiply the stats of subcores (and any other modules). You don't get nearly a half-million shields very easily, otherwise ^^'. The 7-star subcore also helps (yes, really; it's the round one).
  
  
• Full-synergy "bricks" are generally slightly weaker in raw offensive power than "stick" builds, but you gain significantly increased stats and maneuverability (both speed and turn rate) in trade, due to synergy bonuses + much lower total weight. If your synergy builds are slower, you might want to reassess your approach. You trade a bit of offensive power for synergy bonuses to stats and handling, remember; that can be...bad...on a slower design.
  
  
• Synergy builds are MUCH cheaper to field/upgrade, by a huge margin, than "stick" builds. They're especially useful in the early- to mid-game, when resources are still tight.
  
  
• Don't ignore "partial" synergy. My "kitchen sink" build above is outrageously strong, for example, without a huge sacrifice of maneuverability.
  
  
• The turn numbers for my wider builds are a little misleading, due to physics penalties. That said, the top design above quite literally outflies everything except Sniper Cannon shots. It's both (just barely) faster AND more agile than strike craft, unboosted, and nothing but Sniper fire can catch up at all when under boost =).
  
  
• Any place that your ship has a 90° internal bend, you get one "dead" slot (2 single slots overlap, of which you can only use 1). If your ship has an H (or capital-serif I) chassis, you are guaranteeing at least 2 dead slots that don't have to happen. Just move the main "crossbar" of the ship to one side or the other, making a "C" shape instead (rotated/flipped as necessary), and *pouf* 2 free slots! Try to never waste more than 2 slots, if at all possible, although I DO get that aesthetics also matter.

Synergy builds are just about as effective, overall, as any stick build, if not even more so, BUT they also can severely punish both build and piloting errors; it's not a magic "gimme", or anything, it's just another valid way to build your ship. That said, I've found various synergy builds to be (by far) the most fun to actually pilot.

[Azirahael]

First off, i played the game without mods.
So: 15 cores.

Second, squat synergy builds seem to be no better than stick builds.
Seriously, try it.
Take all the parts of your favourite build and build a stick with way more noses and wings or whatever, and compare both the stats and threat rating.
Then take it into battle to test it.

When i took my stick and turned it into a brick it dropped like 30 threat.
And was not noticably tougher or faster.
Maybe a little.
And yes, the guns got a boost, but not enough to make up for being 1/2 as many.

[Bozobub]

No mods exist for SPAZ 2, at this time; there was ONE (extra hangar) mod for a much earlier Early Access version but that's it, that I know of. This is from Sandbox play; the Campaign is quite literally the tutorial for Sandbox play. I was also responding directly to Antiga's post, above mine; I probably should have used a quote to make that clearer.

Additionally, I directly noted synergy trades a small amount of offensive power for a significant boost to stats and maneuverability; what are you on about, exactly? I've also tried a wide variety of builds, from "stick" to "brick", and all points in between; NONE of them is "uber", particularly, in terms of actual effectiveness, over any of the others, although synergy builds tend to be much more fun to fly, in my opinion =).

Feel free to use whatever chassis you like; that won't change the fact that synergy actually works quite well, of course, nor will it *take away* from the fact that "sticks" also work fine. Next time, if you've already made up your mind, however, howzabout not even asking the question?

You should probably try building some of my designs, before you make flat statements; they ought to work with any similar count of large parts, of any quality, as long as you don't have some sort of missile or torpedo fetish xD. Oddly enough, my designs are fast enough that bomb-carrying loadouts actually work better than most, as I'm nearly always clear of enemy Zapper/point defenses, so I don't give myself bomb "facials"; I still wouldn't recommend it, but it's WAY better than using a slow build for 'em'.

Note: Synergy boosts to weapon damage can go over 100% (121%, IIRC) and up to 50% faster recycle time, as well. You might want to marinate on that, for a moment.

[Azirahael]

[Previous Statement Still Applies]

[Bozobub]

No, it doesn't. That's simply insistence that you cannot support. I *dare you* to try a 21-core "stick" on Insane, as an easy example ^^'. Have fun, I guess?

You really ought to try one of those builds, ya know; I'm pretty sure a Threat Rating of 425 isn't exactly terrible =3. Good day to you.

[Azirahael]

[Previous Statement Still Applies]

You don't get it. When you have those blocks, any design is gonna be good.
Do what i suggested. See the difference.

[Bozobub]

I have; I've been playing since Early Access, you know. You should follow your own advice, point of fact.

Again, my assertion here isn't that synergy builds are somehow "better", overall, although they certainly are superior for specific purposes. What I AM saying is that, especially regarding varying playstyles — and resource cost — synergy builds can do as well, or better than, "stick" builds. And the more cores you have, the better synergy is, as well.

You are making extensive assertions you cannot support, based on the Campaign which is the *tutorial* for Sandbox play, you know. When starting a Sandbox game, you can choose from 15, 18, or 21 cores max for your game (unfortunately, this is one of the few sliders you CANNOT change after starting a game).

Next time, howzabout you save everyone the argument, if you've already made up your mind?

[sbm311]

Originally posted by Bozobub:

Note: Synergy boosts to weapon damage can go over 100% (121%, IIRC) and up to 50% faster recycle time, as well.

Up to 115% damage increase by default "Synergy Damage" slider(can vary 75-200%). And up to 50% this is not a faster recycle time, this is synergy bonus to part stats(not apply to weapon stats).

Originally posted by Azirahael:

...squat synergy builds seem to be no better than stick builds.
When i took my stick and turned it into a brick it dropped like 30 threat.

Threat level indicator is a very relative parameter that does not take into account player piloting experience. So the difference of 30 units is negligible.

The above slider can make the synergy design more powerful or weaker than stick design. With the default settings synergy designs something better, something worse than stick designs. That's just the point, that the synergy was introduced for a greater ships forms variety without
efficiency losses. So the more compact ship design, the less parts with weapons you can install, but in return get more stats and damage from these parts. Synergy bonuses is well balanced, thus any design can be used, from stick to brick.

[Azirahael]

Originally posted by Bozobub:

I have; I've been playing since Early Access, you know. You should follow your own advice, point of fact.

Again, my assertion here isn't that synergy builds are somehow "better", overall, although they certainly are superior for specific purposes. What I AM saying is that, especially regarding varying playstyles — and resource cost — synergy builds can do as well, or better than, "stick" builds. And the more cores you have, the better synergy is, as well.

You are making extensive assertions you cannot support, based on the Campaign which is the *tutorial* for Sandbox play, you know. When starting a Sandbox game, you can choose from 15, 18, or 21 cores max for your game (unfortunately, this is one of the few sliders you CANNOT change after starting a game).

Next time, howzabout you save everyone the argument, if you've already made up your mind?

Playing since early access? So have i. since before you in fact.

The campaign is the tutorial? Ooops. Here was i thinking it was the... campaign.

No, i haven't made up my mind.
What i've done is ask the questions, and in the absence of certainty, i've done tests.

Brick:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1248079811

Stick:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1248080734

Same parts as much as possible.
Note that the shields and armour are within 35 points of each other.
Note that the health is not hugely higher on the brick.
And note that there's nearly twice the guns on the stick.

So even if each brick gun is doubled in firepower, it's still only equal to the stick.
And testing it on combat, the stick is noticeably more dangerous, if only in 'feel.'

[Bozobub]

You've set up ONE example of a synergy "brick" with maladapted parts. Not a comprehensive test =).

Yes, you sacrifice some power, to gain some stats and a lot of maneuverability; you've proven nothing but what I've been telling you the entire time. I'll also note that I'm posting speeds ca. 300; while your stick has *50*; the stats are there on every design I posted above.

[Azirahael]

Originally posted by Bozobub:

And you've still not *flown* the "brick".

We're done here.

Nope. I flew the brick.

Took it through 6 battles.

Now trying a 'C' shape.