Story Talk - Major Spoilers and Fan Theories Welcome

[Celedextra]

Haven't seen much of this on this forum so I wanted to help hopefully start some dives.

What I would like to touch on is ultimately the ending of Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance. How these two endings relate and compliment each other. They are complex, nuanced and left decades of fan debates that beautifully display how amazing the story of the LoK games are.

My prime curiosity and endless question: What happened and was / is going to happen to Raziel at the end of SR2 & Defiance. The surface of the topic we know from creator confirmation and in-game proper storytelling that the Raziel we play ends up having his soul locked inside The Reaver at the end of SR2 and thus creating the Soul Reaver Kain wields throughout the BO games. We do know that the Wraith Blade once purified into The Spirit Reaver (Raziel's future soul purified) is dispersed into Kain purging him of corruption. Simultaneously Raziel's current soul (the one in the Raziel we play) is then pulled into The Reaver to create the Soul Reaver of Defiance's timeline.

This event both traps current Raziel's soul to create the Soul Reaver of Defiance's timeline while allowing his future soul to purify The Pillar's corruption and complete his vampire prophesied destiny. Suggesting that all timelines were necessary to create and full-fill the vampire prophesy and that there was no "original" timeline that was changed or rewritten. All timelines are simply products of the ONE timeline that exists (the Defiance timeline and ending). All the time travel is just how it happens. I'm sure people will debate that but that's the beauty of this story. We can debate it because there is so much to it.

So what am I getting at? Why was Raziel being pulled into The Reaver at the end of SR2 and what was the nature of the event? And so the slippery slope begins...

My curiosity of why and how it happened can be (not briefly) summed up in the following:

Raziel's dialogue explains the event as the two blades 'turning on him'. We can take this as absolute fact or simply his interpretation of what is happening. Why, according to him, is because no other foes exist and The Reaver and Wraith Blade are mad with hunger. We can find validity for this explanation in both gameplay (fully aroused and the Wraith Blade will drain your health in combat) and Raziel's past dialogue. The fragile balance the Wraith Blade began to have with Raziel after the event at William's Chapel when he almost killed Mobious comes to mind.

Raziel isn't a host at this time either, as the Wraith Blade actually leaves him to embrace the physical form of The Reaver. Meaning it can theoretically bond with it again without obstruction as it is The Reaver not The Soul Reaver. He is no longer required in the mind of the Wraith Blade to carry it. We don't have anything to suggest The Reaver has sentience only that it is designed to drain the 'life blood' of it's enemies but we KNOW the Wraith Blade is in a fragile alliance with Raziel at this time. This suggests that the Wraith Blade takes control of The Reaver and forces it to stab Raziel (although this can be expanded on so more on that later). The Wraith Blade knew not to kill Raziel before but now it is inconsequential. The Wraiths Blade motivation could be explained by a few possibilities.

That the Wraith Blade feels perhaps 'betrayed' that Raziel took up The Reaver and failed to take into account Mobious' staff. I find this explanation very unlikely. While we know the Wraith Blade is sentient there is very little to suggest that it has any motivation or feelings of loyalty to Raziel. It wouldn't be 'hurt' by his choice to dawn another weapon. This could be that it didn't have the ability to express it and knew The Reaver was the only weapon that could actually 'hurt' Raziel. Either way, unlikely.

Where I question Raziel's explanation is that the Wraith Blade isn't aroused at this time (it didn't absorb any souls as The Reaver was being used) unless it wrapping around The Reaver caused it to be influenced by The Reaver's current state. When this happened The Reaver influenced the Wraith Blade and caused it to blindly turn on Raziel.

This brings us to how it is possible for The Reaver to absorb Raziel and what happens to the Wraith Blade after? The Reaver is stated to be able to absorb "the life blood" of it's enemies. Raziel's 'life blood' would be is soul energy. We have seen Dumah in SR1 drain this from Raziel during their encounter (Dumah is at that time however a Wraith like Raziel which would explain this and counter this idea). If we assume that "life blood" is more a catch all phrase rather than a reference to the blood that vampires drink then it makes sense The Reaver could drain his soul. Difference being his blood is actually his very self rather than just a product found IN HIM to keep him alive. But unlike the Wraith Blade it doesn't 'eat' souls, it merely is capable of draining only one. This seems unlikely, as I stated.

The other possibility being that when the Wraith Blade wraps itself around The Reaver it bestowed with the ability to drain Raziel's Soul into it during this one event. I find this much more likely as we know it is possible for this to happen when the Wraith Blade is in proximity to Raziel in any way. It happened in William's Chapel after all, just not to the point of completely destroying Raziel. It couldn't pull him into the physical blade because that would mean there would be two souls inside since the physical blade is actually the Soul Reaver, not The Reaver. This of course means The Wraith Blade could theoretically continue to exist as long as it is attached to a weapon of some kind. At the very least physical Reaver blade in any of it's forms regardless of what lies within. I don't find this likely but it could be possible.

My head is starting to hurt...onward.

Either way, the 'choice' for the physical Reaver blade stabbing Raziel I believe is because the Wraith Blade wanted it to and when it wrapped itself around The Reaver it gained physical control of it or 'awakened it' in some way. But...why? It wasn't aroused to the point of actively draining Raziel and where could it go after? Can it just stay around the outside physical blade while the physical blade holds Raziel inside? If so, why isn't it present when the sword is destroyed in the future when it strikes Raziel? It can exist without a host as we see it in SR1 before Raziel binds with it. Perhaps this is for a limited time before it would have returned to the Wheel of Fate? That would follow the rules of how souls work. If their body is destroyed (the physical Reaver) in the physical realm their souls can be absorbed into the Wheel of Fate and will linger momentarily in the spectral realm. We know two Raziel souls can't exist in the Reaver because the event at William's Chapel suggests Raziel can't actually be pulled in it while a soul already resides inside HOWEVER he could have been destroyed/killed as his energy was being used to repair the blade.

Ooof...

So is fate deciding that in this moment Raziel's Wraith Blade self and normal self is going to be merged inside the blade? Why would the Wraith Blade WANT that? Perhaps it didn't know that would happen? How could it come to the conclusion that it would be able to survive being on the outside of this Soul Reaver when it knew it couldn't on the other Soul Reaver it fixed in William's Chapel? It wasn't crazed at this time doing this blindly since it hadn't be used in battle.

Instead of all those questions sitting in limbo I believe that the Wraith Blade would have returned to the Wheel of Fate and the only thing driving it (consciously or unconsciously) is that this moment was when its past self is supposed to be sucked in but not realizing it needed to be purified first before leaving Raziel. Raziel didn't know yet that the Spirit Reaver was even a thing and that the Elder God was the source of corruption in the world so how could it know? Why would it even care? It only 'knew' that it had to be created and this was the moment of its creation in the current 'lived in' timeline. It knew The Reaver was the tool and that this moment it was vacant and able to hold Raziel.

I believe this because we know it is possible for the Wraith Blade to 'pass on' once Raziel is inside The Reaver (as seen in Defiance) as long as Raziel can create the Soul Reaver at some point by being pulled in The Reaver. We also know two Raziel souls can't be inside the sword meaning the Wraith Blade soul must go somewhere else after. Since time isn't linear in the LoK series we also know that his Wraith Blade Soul could be used to create his Sarafan self once returned to the Wheel of Fate (total shot in the dark with 0 thought behind it, just an idea).

This cycle only has to happen once for Defiance to happen. For the vampire prophesy to come true. So the idea that there is only one timeline and all the sub-set timelines are just a part of how that timeline (the Defiance timeline) unfolds supports this idea. The Wraith Blade dispersing back to the Wheel of Fate is possible as the Elder God saying they are "inexplicably bound" means the cycle of the Soul Reaver being created must happen. Which of course, as stated, it is destine to leave Raziel once Raziel is placed inside The Reaver and at that point go somewhere else. Be it via transfer to the balance guardian or no longer having a host to go back to and returning to the Wheel of Fate as it is no longer bound to an immortal being/object.

Anyway...hope to spark some more love of this story as I enjoyed sharing this long-winded two decades of love I have for the series. Look forward to reading what anyone else has to say. It's really an amazing story and I hold it close to my heart. It's my "Lord of the Rings" so to speak.

[Comrade Burrito]

I always assumed that, whenever characters, such as Kain in the "poor William" scene, would talk about "fate propelling them forward," it was merely a figure of speech. What could really be happening is that Raziel's soul, trapped in the Reaver blade form, was doing everything it could to finally get released. When the blade "turns" on Raziel, it's his previous incarnation forcing him to inhabit the blade so that it, in turn, could dissipate into oblivion. The same is true about the sword trying to kill Kain, seemingly - of its own volition: the older Raziel, driven mad by his imprisonment, just wants to get it over with.

[Malbec]

That's all well and good, but what I wanna know is:

Why, if Raziel was just an unwitting tool in the Hylden masterplan, doing their bidding exactly as planned (as the Hylden head honcho proclaims near the end of Defiance), why then do they keep attacking and trying to end him for most of SR2 and Defiance?
Why not just let him get on with it?

[Fear Ghoul]

Originally posted by Malbec:

That's all well and good, but what I wanna know is:

Why, if Raziel was just an unwitting tool in the Hylden masterplan, doing their bidding exactly as planned (as the Hylden head honcho proclaims near the end of Defiance), why then do they keep attacking and trying to end him for most of SR2 and Defiance?
Why not just let him get on with it?

The Hylden see it as their champion betraying them. They're angry and trying to kill him for choosing Janos over them. The Hylden Lord may very well think he's the actual champion depicted in the murals as well.

As for the original post, if we look at all of this, it seems most likely that the original timeline had Kain becoming the Scion of Balance. Moebius made it look like his goal was only to kill all vampires with the crusade after William's murder, but the real goal was the timeline we see with Soul Reaver and up to the point where Raziel changes history in SR2 the first time. If Raziel hadn't resisted, he would have killed Kain, gone back in time, led to Janos Audron's death, and gotten sucked into the Reaver with no one to save him.

[Fear Ghoul]

Also, in Soul Reaver 2, Raziel talks about the Wraith Blade being mad. It's likely that after centuries of being trapped in a blade, Raziel lost his mind and only cared about devouring souls. So the idea seems to be that while Raziel is holding the Reaver at the end, the Wraith Blade is suppressed, but maybe not entirely, which is why he can't let go, and why he's filled with bloodlust, which comes from the physical blade. After Moebius lets go of this, the Wraith Blade comes out and wants to return to its old home, and is is still hungry for souls and blood, so it turns on Raziel since he's the only thing in the area that can be attacked.

[Celedextra]

Originally posted by Fear Ghoul:

Also, in Soul Reaver 2, Raziel talks about the Wraith Blade being mad. It's likely that after centuries of being trapped in a blade, Raziel lost his mind and only cared about devouring souls. So the idea seems to be that while Raziel is holding the Reaver at the end, the Wraith Blade is suppressed, but maybe not entirely, which is why he can't let go, and why he's filled with bloodlust, which comes from the physical blade. After Moebius lets go of this, the Wraith Blade comes out and wants to return to its old home, and is is still hungry for souls and blood, so it turns on Raziel since he's the only thing in the area that can be attacked.

I think there's a validity to this. Raziel's perspective of events does make this seem plausible. While there is nothing to show the Wraith Blade is 'aroused' like in combat when it drains your energy (in game) it does act in a similar way. It is making a conscious effort though to rebuild the blade in William's Chapel. He talks about it 'lovingly' and 'actively' trying to do it. Which is why I don't think it's mindlessly attacking Raziel at the end of SR2. He does say it's fully aware during the Chapel event. In that I think it is making a conscious effort to attack him. Why, is where I throw my hands up.

Could it know that in locking Raziel in the Reaver it will be unbound from him and then able to return to The Wheel of Fate thereby releasing it/him from being a Wraith Blade and thousands of years of being bound/imprisoned to someone/something? I think this is the most likely situation given everything leading up to the event. This is where I think Raziel's perspective is not entirely accurate. He can't sense it's intentions like he could when it was attached to him in William's Chapel. He can only interpret it at this time as he said the feeling of it's absence chilled him more than its presence ever did. It 'knew' not to destroy it's host so it stands to reason it would 'know' that it could lock Raziel inside.

Just, it's odd because it can't actually devour his soul so the magic here would not be the Wraith Blade devouring his soul it would have to be the Wraith Blade changing the magic of The Reaver to absorb Raziel's soul knowing that The Reaver couldn't actually devour Raziel only lock him inside. It must know by some means or just not care that it's fate will be to fade back into The Wheel. Why would it try to devour a soul it can't?

P.S. I love these conversations hahaha. Thank you for your response(s). Hope to see more people indulge their curiosity now that there has been a bit of a resurgence of interest.

[Malbec]

Originally posted by Fear Ghoul:

The Hylden see it as their champion betraying them. They're angry and trying to kill him for choosing Janos over them. The Hylden Lord may very well think he's the actual champion depicted in the murals as well.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. Raziel isn't betraying the Hylden, not even seemingly.
They actually want him to choose Janos, thereby ending Kain and, in restoring the heart to Janos, providing a 'more durable vessel' for the Hylden Lord, as the latter calls it. Kain even seems to realize this, when he has his little mystical moment at the end of SR2.

And what was up with Kain's miraculous resurrection? He somehow ends up in the Hylden's plane of banishment and then just exits and carries on without a care in the world?
No explanation for this is offered, apart from Kain's pithy retort of "They always said I was heartless."
Yes, very witty, Kain, but why are you up and about without the heart, while the most powerful ancient vampire falls into a 500-year slumber?

[Fear Ghoul]

There are definite problems I have with how the story ended up (like Turel being Hash'ak'gik, which makes no sense in the context of Blood Omen if you actually examine that game). As for Kain, I think the idea is that his soul can't leave his body, that the only way he can truly die is from the Soul Reaver devouring his soul, so that's why he keeps living. About him waking up, note that this only happens after Raziel activates the Spirit Forge. Ariel says that the souls of every Balance Guardian is being called (and it was stated in interviews that this is supposed to be Ariel from the distant future being pulled back in time), so what's going on is that this wakes Kain up, who even states that he feels drawn to the Ancient Vampire Citadel.

I don't see why the Hylden thinking Raziel has betrayed them makes no sense. Raziel clearly sees Janos as a mentor, and has no interest in helping the Hylden. He tried to bring Janos back to life, so he's trying to help the enemy of the Hylden. The murals are so vague that I think it's entirely possible the Hylden Lord decided Raziel was a false messiah and instead that he himself must be the actual champion in the mural, with Kain being the Vampire champion. The Hylden even call Raziel "Renegade and traitor!"

[Celedextra]

Originally posted by Fear Ghoul:

There are definite problems I have with how the story ended up (like Turel being Hash'ak'gik, which makes no sense in the context of Blood Omen if you actually examine that game). As for Kain, I think the idea is that his soul can't leave his body, that the only way he can truly die is from the Soul Reaver devouring his soul, so that's why he keeps living. About him waking up, note that this only happens after Raziel activates the Spirit Forge. Ariel says that the souls of every Balance Guardian is being called (and it was stated in interviews that this is supposed to be Ariel from the distant future being pulled back in time), so what's going on is that this wakes Kain up, who even states that he feels drawn to the Ancient Vampire Citadel.

I don't see why the Hylden thinking Raziel has betrayed them makes no sense. Raziel clearly sees Janos as a mentor, and has no interest in helping the Hylden. He tried to bring Janos back to life, so he's trying to help the enemy of the Hylden. The murals are so vague that I think it's entirely possible the Hylden Lord decided Raziel was a false messiah and instead that he himself must be the actual champion in the mural, with Kain being the Vampire champion. The Hylden even call Raziel "Renegade and traitor!"

Wow, all this time and I never even made the connection of Kain being resurrected by the Spirit Forge.

I think to double down on supporting what you're saying about Raziel is that they do recognize he is capable of free will or at least will be in some point. Moebious comments on this as being a huge focus. Making the one person with free will do everything that they want him to do. So it's entirely possible they don't like the route he is on or perhaps they know antagonizing him will push him forward even faster? They know they can't kill him so attempting to slow him / kill his physical form isn't going to impair him from eventually succeeding.

[Fear Ghoul]

I'm not sure just how far forward the Hylden are thinking. They seem to just think that their plan is about to succeed and they don't want Raziel interfering if he's not going to help. Look at the conversation near the end of the game between Raziel and the Hylden Lord when he's possessing Janos as well. He seems to have completely dismissed Raziel as an ally and is instead gloating about how his plan has succeeded, in a manner very similar to how he did to Kain just a little before at the Pillars of Nosgoth, which we see in Blood Omen.

[Comrade Burrito]

Pretty sure, in Hyden eyes, Raziel is still a vampire. They know he isn't their champion by choice and can turn against them on a dime. Believing that their plan can also work without him, the banished ancients repeatedly check if they can remove this shared pawn from the board.